104 thoughts on “I Agree …

  1. To maybe add to that, here are some slogans for people who believe in democracy. Feel free to improve on them.

    WHEN THE RIGHT IS WRONG, VOTE LEFT!

    THE RIGHT WAY IS THE WRONG WAY!

    LIFE BELONGS TO THE LIVING!

    WEALTH INEQUITY IS UNEQUALLY DISTRIBUTED!

    REPUBLICANS PROMOTE SLAVERY OF THE WOMB!

    YOU-TER(N)-US INTO BABY MACHINES, NOT MOTHERS!

    LEFT IS RIGHT, MISUNDERSTOOD

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    • I feal the anti’s would cling to this one: LIFE BELONGS TO THE LIVING! since they are convinced that the blastocyte is a living being with full rights to think and make decisions about its future life as a birthed human being.

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      • They can cling to it if they want, but the LIVING are the mothers who are bearing the babies, and their lives are the most impirtant. But, how about this, LIFE BELONGS TO THE ALREADY LIVING, NOT THE UNBORN.

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      • I don’t see why you would read it that way. It says, in effect, men should shut the fuck up (about abortion, presumably). I see no sign that it’s mean unseriously. If another blog you regularly read posted something that said “women should shut the fuck up”, would you feel like commenting there again?

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        • OK. I get your point. But IMO, it was primarily directed to the men who seem to think they have the right to speak for women on this issue. Certainly men can have/offer opinions, but when push comes to shove, what goes on in a woman’s uterus is essentially HER decision.

          As to your reference about the tables being turned, it would depend on the topic. 😈

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        • what goes on in a woman’s uterus is essentially HER decision

          I agree with this, as I’m sure you know. As I’m sure you also know, there’s very little statistical difference between men and women where views on abortion are concerned. I don’t see what difference it makes whether the person taking freedom away is of the same gender as the person whose freedom is being taken away. It’s still taken away.

          Certainly men can have/offer opinions

          That’s not what the post says, though. It says men (of whom I am one) should shut the fuck up, not just some men. Obviously on your own blog you can make whatever rules you want. This one seems pretty straightforward/blunt. If you meant something other than “men should shut the fuck up about this”, it might have been better to post something that expressed what you actually did mean.

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        • I guess at this point I have to ask … do you take every meme this seriously? Also, as an FYI, I found this one on Facebook. It’s not my own creation. (I don’t even know HOW to make memes.)

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        • If a blogger makes an entire post out of one meme, especially one which is aggressively insulting to an entire category of people, then I think it’s reasonable to take it seriously.

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        • Perhaps Infidel can think of ONE topic that is solely a male concern which women get to have a say on. . . One which takes place in a man’s body. Here’s the point you missed, Infidel. You have no uterus. . You have no say. Or you shouldn’t. But half the population of the US – if the Supreme Court (ultimately, the Religious Right actually) – will have the autonomy of THEIR OWN BODY taken away. Think on that and then tell us that men don’t get to be told – STFU.

          It might be rude and you obviously don’t like it but it’s the truth.

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        • Here’s the point you missed, Infidel. You have no uterus. . You have no say. Or you shouldn’t

          I didn’t miss that point. I was agreeing to it, as far as Nan’s blog is concerned. I simply said that, as a man, I won’t comment on the subject of abortion on her blog any more, exactly as the posted image specified.

          (On my own blog, of course, I’ll continue to write about anything I want, but Nan gets to decide what the rules are on her blog.)

          Yes, men may have opinions. But they should not have controlling opinions on this issue

          That’s not what the image says. It says men should shut the fuck up about the issue. So, where abortion is concerned, I will do so, on her blog.

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  2. I couldn’t agree more, Nan. The troglodytes in Congress and the Religious Right have absolutely no right to tell any women what she can and can not do with her body.

    It’s funny that the RR support the GOP that have done nothing but take the safety net and any programs to support women in child support and rearing away! But they want to force them to have children they can not afford! The supporters of the GOP must own this.

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    • At its core, the anti-abortionist movement simply doesn’t care about the woman. Its entire focus is on the cellular “life” … even when the woman herself might/could die if she were to birth the fetus.

      And, as many have said before me, once the child is born … sorry! I have to walk the dog.

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  3. And this is just the beginning. Next will be a ban on birth control. After all, the Catholic Church sees it as a violation of the 5th Commandment (6th for some), prohibiting murder.

    I do wonder if folks realize how many anti-abortion people are female. But maybe I should just shut the fuck up. 🙂

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    • Yes, you’re correct. There are a considerable number of anti-abortion females. Mostly, I would think, within the evangelic community. You know the one — where the MAN is the HEAD of the household and women are commanded to do their bidding? Yep. That’s the one.

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      • Correct. I am very sorry to say that, very often, women are their own worst enemies and that is very unfortunate. If women banded together politically our society would look considerable different than now, and for the better I believe.

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      • I think you’ve it squarely, Nan. It is drilled into and beaten into the minds of evangelicals how the woman is the man’s enabler. But, it took me a while to come to terms with the idea of slaves and their descendants could be so devoted to the religion of their tormentors. But they do, and some may say they do it better than the whites. It just proves we all are human and we make our choices in much the same way, I hope, on the strength of our convictions.

        One thing about not being just a pew-warming Christian is that I spent a lot of time learning everything I could about the enterprise. That may be the only positive result of having gone hook, line, and sinker. We know the truth about religion. We know that politicians and priests join forces to deny the will of the people. We know the public, by the numbers, is against the abortion ban. But today the Senate voted down the Women’s Healthcare bill. Along party lines. For that, I blame Biden and the Democrats who seem to be sitting this out.

        “You may not control all the events that happen to you, but you can decide not to be reduced by them.” – Maya Angelou

        We may actually see Roe v. Wade overturned. It comes down to how many believe like we do, versus how many believe like Trump. We are in for a struggle. The GOP has now shone its underbelly. The Supreme Court is exposed as a corrupt party tool. There is no more doubt about their intentions.

        Dig in! Incoming!

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  4. (Rich) Women will still be able to get abortions. . .poor women will try other methods. And die. Or have a child they do not want. THAT’s what’s wrong with trying to force birth. 😦

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    • In Muslim nations, women of importance do not have to submit to the laws forced on the poor.

      It is about control.

      Num. 14:18 The Lord is slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love, forgiving iniquity and transgression, but he will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, to the third and the fourth generation.’

      Exod. 34:7 Keeping steadfast love for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, but who will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children and the children’s children, to the third and the fourth generation.”

      Compare with Fallopians 13:13

      Damn the impotent gods of evil men.

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  5. The abortion issue is about the right to life of the unborn child. No bodily organ, including the uterus supersedes the right to life.

    Everyone, man and woman, thus is able and morally obliged to dialogue on this issue.

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    • Nope. Unless you are DIRECTLY involved in the birthing of a child, you do NOT have the right or the prerogative to make any decisions for the individual carrying that child.

      The core of this issue is that you –and others who think like you– are actually attempting to make a decision for the yet unborn. So in essence, the question really is … who are you to make a decision for an entity that cannot decide for itself? Instead, you push your judgments upon the women, who IS capable of making her own decisions.

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        • “We are just an advanced breed of monkeys on a minor planet of a very average star. But we can understand the Universe. That makes us something very special.” – Stephen Hawking

          “Almost everything that distinguishes the modern world from earlier centuries is attributable to science, which achieved its most spectacular triumphs in the seventeenth century.” – Bertrand Russell

          The age that created your god, from which you base your unproven ‘beliefs’, began to shrivel under the light of critical inquiry. The result of overturning Roe v. Wade is to begin the journey back to a time and a social setting in which you would never be able to survive. The church did not discriminate. Everyone not a pope or a priest will be absolutely subservient to the church.

          Here is something to think about: Why don’t you promote castration, sterilization, or a $50,000 fine for men impregnating a woman?

          Even if you live on a flat earth, you need a compass to keep you oriented. If you support a democratically governed republic, you need to be able to understand when, why and by whom, it is under threat. You do not have the right to promote our destruction. You do have the obligation to be informed.

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        • Stephen Hawking’s statement contradicts itself. That means he does not know what he is talking about. Therefore, if you wish to make a rational argument, lose Stephen Hawking.

          There is no rational connection between castration, sterilization, $50,000 fines and the right to life. Our American Republic is based on the right to life.

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        • Bertrand Russell is dead wrong on everything. It is obvious and undeniable that the 20th century saw Christian Western Civilization’s greatest leap forward. Mass starvation became obsolete as did mass death from plague, polio and other diseases. Mass communication, computer networks, data processing, supply chain management, the supermarket are all inventions of the 20th century.

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        • SOM. You say that the Stephen Hawking quote contradicts itself. But that is false, it clearly isn’t. So either you did not understand it, or you are lying. Your choice. Also this is OT from the post and Nan really doesn’t like people doing that, so I won’t pursue this, but I just wanted to point out your falsity. Hugs

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    • Hello SOM. That is a rule about life that only applies to a woman and the not yet viable thing growing inside her that is only a potential human for most of the time in the womb. Even past the point of viability many pregnancies can and do end before birth with the death of a fetus. But to address your point about saving a life, you do realize in the US no one can be forced to give any part of their body, not even blood to save another life even if it is their own child. No man can be made to give up a kidney, bone marrow, his other organs, to save another life. The only thing a male is giving up creating a possible human is his sperm. But here with forced birth the demand is a woman must risk her life against her will, face life long physical, mental, economic harms including a total lifestyle change because other people refuse to admit the science about when the human existence begins. No man will be forced to risk his life by giving something else his body for 9 months so it can grow and possibly become a human. No man will face the changes of his body over those 9 months. No man will risk kidney failure for example from carrying a baby. Plus when the medical bills arrive for the cost of pre-natal care, birthing costs, and post natal healthcare, unless the man who was involved in the act that started the issue in the first place is married to or the guardian of the woman forced to give birth, no man is forced to pay her costs for the entire thing. So there are two issues to your point. No man can be forced to give up any part of his body to another could be possible person even to save their life, and the woman gets stuck with the bill for the costs of the forced pregnancy / birth both health wise and financially.

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      • Upon conception the human being is viable. At conception a creature is no longer potential but actual precisely because that creature possesses a complete genome. The human being possesses the right to life from the moment of conception until death. Likewise, the unborn child possesses his or her own bodily autonomy. Therefore, abortion is a violation of the right to life and the bodily autonomy of a live, viable human being.

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        • SOM. You ignore what you do not want to hear. No person is required in the US to give anything of themselves or risk anything of themselves to save another living being regardless of age or circumstances other than what you want to require of a pregnant woman. That is a fact and matter of law. Say you get your way and a woman is forced to bring a pregnancy to term and everything goes well so she delivers a baby. But a year later that baby suffers from a complete kidney failure. It needs a kidney to survive. The dad could do that with only minimal risk to his life from the surgery. But no law requires it. He can refuse and the child will die. There is no law saying he must give up any body part or risk any body damage to save the life of his child.

          But the woman was required to risk her body and her life for that viable human, yet once born no one is required to risk anything to save its life? Does that make sense to you? Is that about the life of the baby? Or the potential human life? Or really about controlling women and their reproductive organs for the future offspring of men?

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      • Very well done, Scottie.

        I know you are facing some serious consequences from such a ruling. My daughter’s first pregnancy was a tubal pregnancy. (It has a proper name, but … ) She was critical by the time they figured it out. Looking back on that, I know she would not have survived if the church were in charge of her care.

        I think it may have been Seneca the Elder who counseled to beware of a man who promotes an action in which he has no skin.
        (Maybe not those words exactly.)

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        • It’s good that your daughter made it through her tubal pregnancy … and as you say, had the “laws” of “baby first” been in effect she, as well as the embryo within her, would most likely have died. IMO, the individuals who push these special circumstances aside are a particular breed of IDIOTS.

          What we need is a sterilization pill for MEN, similar to the birth control methods for women. Then they could have all the sex they wanted and the woman wouldn’t get pregnant. Problem solved!

          P.S. There are SO MANY things wrong with this ruling, it’s mind-boggling that anyone would even THINK about supporting it.

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        • Hello Cagjr. I am so glad your daughter survived. Sadly there are a lot of people who are in areas where the only hospitals are Catholic owned hospitals where women are dying because during the tRump administration these hospitals got released from Medicare requirements to help women in these situations. In a lot of rural areas these hospitals that are run by religious doctrine instead of best health practices are the only choice people have.

          You know the referendum to approve abortion in Ireland was driven by the death of a woman with an ectopic pregnancy. The country was angry that the medical profession was not able to save her due to the laws. So they fought to change them. Here we are going the other way and dooming these women to death for the sake of religion.

          OT Cagjr. I have opened a new blog at Scottiesplaytime.com and your welcome to share your thoughts there as you used to on my nuked Scottiestoybox blog. No pressure just wanted you to know I was back to doing news and you were welcome. As is everyone that enjoys the content or may want to share a thought or two. Hugs

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      • Just want to say hello to Scottie. It looks like Ron is taking good care of you. I hope you feel as good as you look.

        Crisis is the rallying cry of the tyrant.
        James Madison

        That quote explains why we have so much going on. The more turmoil they can inject into our lives, they think the better chances they have of taking us down. Us being all liberal-minded, progressive thinking people of every stripe. I think that whose rights they target next depends on how many of their laws, designed to end voting rights will be allowed. You know this is not new. I know that the gay community, the people of color, non-Christians, and women are tempered with years of struggling against this. People like me were pretty secure in our straight male white skins. (“What? Me worry?”) In the last couple of elections, such people have carried the day for us. This is a coalition that must be maintained. Nurtured. If it crumbles in any way, and there are going to be some wedges driven in any cracks, we can’t be victimized by the right.

        Are you old enough to remember those vice squads? If you left a bar with the wrong person you may not make it out of the parking lot. I’m sure Gay people and people of color suffered the brunt of it, but we caught some of it too.

        Thanks, Nan, for letting Mr barge into your space.

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        • Hello Cagjr. Oh yes my husband ran a “gay” bar where we met. The cops loved to hassle everyone that left the bar yet the attacks on bar patrons were overlooked. This was in the early 1990s.

          Ron takes very good care of me as we move into our golden years, I agree, and I do the same for him. I am finding there has to be more teamwork and mutual reminding as we have grown older. Such as “Did you take your morning pills dear, I just took mine” such stuff.

          But Cagjr, no advancement in rights for any group has been accomplished without the support of the already accepted allies. For example, the abolishment of slavery wouldn’t have happened if white people had not thought it wrong and joined in the idea of all people should be free. LGBTQ+ rights wouldn’t have been accomplished if people had not realized their sons, daughters, siblings, friends were LGBTQ+ and fought alongside us for equal rights.

          Right now there are groups who have joined together to take the country back not just a century but some of them want to take the country back to the 1600s idea of church rule. Alito made that clear in his ruling. He quoted several interesting things. A 1600 lawyer who thought a married woman had no right to refuse her husband (does anyone need that to be made clearer?) and that at that time the church ruled the world. The guy he gave such esteemed credit to also had women burned as witches but … And also that there was a shortage of babies to be adopted, presumptively by those of the faith to raise up as new Christian believers. We know from reports that the young children taken from parents at the Southern border were then given to Christain adoption agencies all across the US to sell to Christian parents. I have seen videos of some of the reunions of the real parents with their young children and the kids are afraid of the original parents, crying and confused. It is a real goal to raise up a new generation of religious kids as the surveys show the US is leaving religion behind.

          The mistake is to think this is just a quirk of the US. This is a well-funded meeting of the minds of several different groups. Steve Bannon was sent around the world to set up enclaves of right wing conservative Christian white only rule instruction groups funded by the billionaire Mercer family. On the other side you have the constantly fund raising Christain church groups pushing the dictates of the moral development of 2,500 years ago which in the US those different groups are trying hard to repeal all social advances has taken over the Republican part, mostly funded and in cooperation with Russia / Putin combined with the churches that love the racist / bigoted message of Russia.

          Sorry I just realized I was going on a rant far from Nan’s post. I respect Nan and her rule to stay focused on the post she made. So I will leave this here and sign off.

          Nan as always if you feel I have gone out into the weeds away from the meaning of the post I will understand if you delete this comment. I trust your judgement. Hugs

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    • Of course you would as a man – and a believer in the invisible realm as well – say something like that. No, it’s none of your business what any women does with her body. For quite a while, it is not a
      “Child” perse, but a clump of cells.

      Show me where your ridiculous dogma even mentions the idea of abortion.

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    • Show me your uterus. Show me the legislation giving you authority over anyone. Show me/us one fact to support your claims. The desperation for the Supreme Court to underpin the agenda of the church has pushed them back into dark age’s religious philosophy. That is where they want to take society.

      Yes, I say what I do because it is my opinion, and I’m entitled to it. I’m entitled to it because I’ve informed myself to the best of my ability, humble as it is, to set the facts against the myths and see what stands up to reason. You can believe what you wish but it will never make it true or factual.

      “You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.” – Harlan Ellison

      You may be ignorant by choice, but it eliminates you from a lot of conversations because of the lack of factual integrity.

      Myself, I’m not very smart, but I know enough to encourage you to get on the right side of this issue and democracy.

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      • My opinion is informed by science and by the Declaration of Independence. That information is conclusive: the unborn child is fully human and as such, possesses the right to life just like you or me.

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        • RaP, It is you leftists who live in your own private Idaho. Watch. Witness our uprising in the next few months. You people are going to be politically buried. The overturn of Roe v Wade, always unheard of, is now a reality. Expect more thunderous demolition of your ideology from now on.

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        • I’m allowing this primarily because I want to point out the FACTS. Idaho is STRONG Republican, so RaPaR’s comment was spot-on.

          Now, having said that, this is the last comment from you on this particular post that I’m allowing. We know your POV and it sucks. Period. The End.

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        • SOM you state the right to life such as you and me? Where is that stated please? In the US if you don’t have money for food you are allowed to starve to death. If you have no money for housing, you are allowed to die from the elements outside. In the US if you cannot pay for healthcare you can die waiting in an emergency room waiting for treatment. In the US an average elderly person who has to go into a nursing home has many hurdles to get through if they cannot afford the $5,000 a month and most cannot qualify. So please tell me again where is that right to life? Seems our government did not get your memo on that.

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    • SOM. In your reply about Bertrand Russell you list a lot of things that modern science brings to society. None of that was accomplished in the days that your holy book was written despite the claim your god was all knowing. Yet the bible has only the knowledge of the people of that time. You just proved that science is the source of knowledge not your religion. Shouldn’t we continue to use science and reason to increase the understanding of reality rather than the precepts of a book of the warring tribes of 2,500 years ago?

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  6. Hello Nan. I was not going to add to the discussion because I figured the meme said the most important parts. But something missing from the discussion on abortion is the fact of maternal mortality in the US. Carrying a zygote through the many stages to full term pregnancy is very risk for the woman, especially when she doesn’t have a choice or say in the doing it. Sadly, about 700 women die each year in the United States as a result of pregnancy or delivery complications. During pregnancy, a woman’s body goes through many changes. These changes are entirely normal but may become very important in case there are complications or problems. This is from the CDC website. Plus this was another shocking thing I found out. Among 11 developed countries, the United States has the highest maternal mortality rate, a relative undersupply of maternity care providers, and no guaranteed access to provider home visits or paid parental leave in the postpartum period, a recent report from The Commonwealth Fund concluded.

    About 10 to 20 percent of known pregnancies end in miscarriage. But the actual number is likely higher because many miscarriages occur very early in pregnancy — before you might even know about a pregnancy.

    Pregnancy is the only thing growing in a human body taking nutrients and forcing perhaps lifelong changes to that body given priority over the life of the already living person, and the only humans forced to give that growing mass of cells that right to their bodies is women. So I figure the one that gets to say if the pregnancy goes to full term is the one whose body is on the line to do it. The woman should have the complete and final say about if she has an abortion. She has to suffer the lifelong consequences of that choice; she should be the one with the only right to make it.

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  7. I do not agree. If men who agree, that women should have rights will not fight for the rights of women, women will lose their rights. Because men and women who think women should not have rights are too numerous for women who fight for their rights, in this time and age. There, like a typical male, I’ve said my piece, even though I was told to be silent since I lack a certain organ. An organ, that certainly should not affect my thinking in this issue in any way.

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    • Really? You wouldn’t be affected by finding yourself in a woman’s body?

      Well, I can’t say so either, but, that is your argument? OK.

      Btw, Nan, agreed.

      However, we do have skin in the game. Not by dictating to the women in our lives, but by giving them the lead and supporting them in every way we can. If their rights are taken away, then be sure that ours will soon follow. LGBTQ+, Black, Brown, Asian, disabled, unemployed, homeless, and destitute. We don’t know for sure who will come under the sword next, but be sure it will be the weakest, poorest, and least able to resist. So much for blind justice, huh?

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      • Hahaha! I would be extremely surprized to find myself in a womans body. So, I guess, I would be “affected”. But honestly, I do not see how that would change my moral perspective on anything. As hystorectamy did not change the moral views of one of my friends.

        I do not see morals as something so relative as to depend upon who I am. I sure hope I can set myself in other people’s shoes regardless of their gender and status of their reproductive organs.

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    • Actually, rautakyy, your point is well-made. And, contrary to Infidel’s perspective, I posted the meme because I felt it was more to stress the fact that it’s not a man’s place to tell a pregnant woman what to do with her body (the baby is, after all, grown in the uterus).

      I certainly did NOT mean it as a directive to my male blog friends not to offer their opinions on the issue.

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      • Trouble with memes may be, that they are attempts to focus on funny, so that they easily lose sight of the issue.

        For me English is a second language, so I often do not get what appears obvious to native speakers and I do tend to go for the literal interpretation. Sometimes that may be a strength, not being tied down by particular cultural preassumptions, but most often it is a handicap. Like for example here, I could see, that the meme was about abortion, but I had no means to read into it the specific context you had in mind, and as such, stripped of the full meaning, it appears only as a bad argument for a good cause, wich I always find frustrating.

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    • Hello rautakyy. If I may I think the disconnect from that the meme says and what is meant is that while men can be allies of women’s choice, the choice must remain with the woman.

      I have noticed several men have taken offence in this discussion that their right to voice their opinion is being denied. That they think they should have as much say as anyone else. But that really shows the mistakes in this discussion.

      While men are talking about their opinions, women are talking about their bodies. And women must always be looking into the future for the repercussions of the act’s men take for granted. Hey for men it is just a hook up. Or a relationship that if it doesn’t work out, they can bail. But the woman must always worry if she becomes pregnant what next. I don’t want to go into the medical details, the financial details, the total change in life plans that the woman faces … alone. Because I am a male and I don’t really understand all that. I don’t have to live with that night, that week, that really great time in my memory. But she does.

      So let’s stop the men feeling sorry for themselves please. When it becomes our bodies in that situation then we get the entire say. No problem, no discussion. Any man going through that I will stand up and fight for your right to choose. I am pro-choice of the pregnant person. But right now those persons are women. So they get the choice.

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  8. Hello Nan. I am about to go off to bed. I am feeling better tonight and decided to go through the comments of your post. I love a good discussion. While I stand by all the comments I made and I enjoy the reasoning I put into them, I realized only after I replied to SOM that you had stopped him from replying. That is your complete right and I do not in any way debate that.

    But I feel conflicted. I stand by what I said but by your ruling he cannot dispute my assessment. I am not sure if that is important to others, but it might be to him. And if I am to be an honest fair person it is to me. I have taken a lot of pain meds, so I am not sure I am thinking this through clearly. I just feel I somehow did the wrong thing replying to SOM before I knew you had disallowed them. I sort of feel I punched someone when they couldn’t punch back. But also I know you have told me I let bad faith conversations go far too long on my own blog. So I am conflicted. I will again turn to your judgment as I have before, if you think my replies should not be visible because SOM cannot rely to them, I am Ok with your deleting them. I am torn, I would like what I said to be in the conversation but … well I am off to bed, it has been a long day. Best wishes and hugs.

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    • Sorry to cause you conflict, Scottie, but I cut off SOM because his rebuttals/replies are nearly always nothing more than a repetition of things he’s said before — just worded a bit differently. As with most religious individuals, his religious beliefs are all he has to fall back on. I know you enjoy a good debate, but please don’t use him as your antagonist. It’s not worth your time.

      Besides, even if he isn’t allowed to respond, your points are still available for visitors to see … and think about. (But do try to stay “on topic.” 🙂)

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  9. When you consider this. Each year, 15 million children die of hunger-related causes, and this means that every day throughout the world 40 000 children die. I think the kids living the horrors of life should become the main priority for these so called moral humans, imagine the billions of dollars on this religious based abortion issue that could have fed and saved many thousands of kids rather than fatten the privileged bank accounts of the greedy pompous arse lawyers. Not to mention of course the billions of dollars paid into churches to pay for fancy buildings, huge salaries, jets and luxury boats that would also go a long way in saving actual children who are suffering as you argue abortion rights in a rich privileged country.

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  10. As free countries, we cannot prevent anyone from bearing children, including those who insist upon procreating regardless of their inability to raise children in a psychologically functional/healthy manner. We can, however, educate all young people for the most important job ever via child-development science curriculum implemented for secondary high school students.

    But owing to the Only If It’s In My Own Back Yard mindset, the prevailing collective attitude (implicit or subconscious) basically follows: ‘Why should I care — my kids are alright?’ or ‘What is in it for me, the taxpayer, if I support programs for other people’s troubled families?’ While some people will justify it as a normal thus moral human evolutionary function, the self-serving OIIIMOBY can debilitate social progress, even when social progress is most needed. And it seems this distinct form of societal penny wisdom but pound foolishness is a very unfortunate human characteristic that’s likely with us to stay. …

    As for abortion services, they, along with critical health services and long-term-care residences, should never be a for-profit, let alone for BIG profit, medical procedure. But it seems there’s nothing sufficiently sacred to be made hands-off to corporate interests.

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  11. So, I have a question. Presuming you are a women Nan (which I never knew before), why do you believe that abortion is a discussion that should only be had by women, and a decision which should only be made by women. Also, why do you think the fetus belongs to the women?

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    • I personally feel that -IF- (emphasis) the pregnancy results from a committed relationship, the contributing male may provide input. But bottom line … it is and always should be the decision of the woman. It is not a matter of who “owns” the fetus. It is a matter of “who” is carrying the fetus.

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      • Even if the fetus results from a non-committed pregnancy (excluding rape), shouldn’t the man get a say in what happens to the fetus? The fetus, after all, has his genes in it. I also want to be clear, I’m not against safe abortion for women who need it, but I don’t like the idea that if a woman wants to abort a child simply because she doesn’t want to deal with it then she can. Now, full confession, I have never had a child, nor have a I carried a child inside of me, nor will I ever carry a child inside of me, so I cannot profess to know the struggles and pain that come with all of that, but it still just doesn’t seem right to me. Also, if it is not a matter of who owns the fetus but who is carrying it, does it work in other situations. If I’m a tow-truck driver who is towing your car, do I have the right to dump it off a cliff because I don’t want to tow it?

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        • If you are not against “safe abortion,” then what is the point of this discussion?

          Don’t you realize that -IF- abortion is made illegal, there will be no “safe” abortions??

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        • Yes, I do understand that, but part of this discussion is about whether or not men get to have a say in what happens to their child. In instances where the mother’s life is at stake, then yes, I think the call is up to her. In instances where it is not, I think the father should be able to have his voice heard.

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        • I have agreed that in certain circumstances, the male contributor may offer his input. But once again, the FINAL decision is the woman’s. Period. And to make it very clear … I am not going to change my position on this no matter what kind of dissent is offered up by you or anyone else.

          Liked by 1 person

        • I think the father should be able to have his voice heard.

          Yes, he should. And for that, he need only talk to the mother. But she gets the final say.

          If he has broken off communications with the mother, then he has blown his opportunity to have a say.

          Liked by 1 person

        • I think I agree that the woman should have the final say, since I don’t think people should be forced to do things, but I also think that, in addition to getting to have a say, men should be taken seriously, and not just brushed off. But yes, unfortunately I think a lot of men walk out of situations like an unplanned pregnancy, which I think is also messed up.

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        • I suppose so, but not everyone thinks everything through. Plus, I feel like men are normally seen as sort of aggressors in the conversation due to their history of having power and making decisions for women, and I think that isn’t right; we should be able to come together and talk things out.

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        • Coming together and talking things out . .hmmm. . Maybe toss in a round of kum ba ya while we’re at it – that ought to do the trick! 😉

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        • It appears that your “religious mind” cannot comprehend the fact that men OFTEN have sex with women to whom they do not owe even the slightest allegiance. So to suggest that the two “talk things out” if the women comes up pregnant and she wants to have an abortion is simply ludicrous.

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        • That’s very true, and I did know this but I’m not necessarily talking about that. What I am saying is that, when the father is concerned or cares about the child he created, he ought to be allowed to speak. Like I said before, I am aware (and disappointed) that many men want nothing to do with the situation (which is wrong), and I am also aware that many people (men and women) sleep with each other and then never see each other again (which I also think is wrong) but I know that there are some men who probably care about their unborn child and want their voice to be heard.

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        • And … as I commented sometime back … IF it is a committed relationship, then certainly the man may offer his thoughts. But … as I ALSO said … the final decision is and ALWAYS should be the WOMAN’s. Even in a “casual” situation where the male contributor “cares about the unborn child,” the FINAL decision rests with the woman.

          P.S. If you persist in this line of discussion, your future comments WILL be moderated.

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        • I am not “getting hostile.” But it is apparent to not only me but others that you are missing the point. Further, you and I have not “said nearly the same thing.” Suggest you read my comments more closely.

          I appreciate you stopping by and offering your thoughts … but repetition rarely changes people’s minds.

          Liked by 2 people

  12. The conversation has only continued because you’re trolling for reactions, AP. Your classic response to me now would be something like, “I don’t understand. Clarify what you mean.” Baloney. It doesn’t matter what anyone is trying to say, as long as you get them to keep trying. That’s a form of trolling. That’s why I am reluctant to say anything at all to you, but I think it’s worth pointing out that your pattern is typical of trolling. Nope, I won’t debate it. Waste of time. But somebody ought to tell you what you’re doing, at least once.

    Liked by 1 person

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