Politics of Humiliation

Nan Donald Trump, Elections, Joe Biden, Politics, ,

My son, a Christian who hates strongly dislikes Trump, sent me an article entitled, “Who can win American’s politics of humiliation?” It was written by Thomas L. Friedman, a columnist for the NY Times. While I wasn’t all that impressed with the article in toto, I did find parts of it relevant to today’s political landscape.

Since the NY times requires you to subscribe before you can read their online articles, I’m just going to reprint some of the relevant parts. If you are a subscriber or have some “free” articles available to you (I had 2 left), here is the link. For everyone else …

[…]

It has been obvious ever since Trump first ran for president that many of his core supporters actually hate the people who hate Trump, more than they care about Trump or any particular action he takes, no matter how awful.

The media feed Trump’s supporters a daily diet of how outrageous this or that Trump action is — but none of it diminishes their support. Because many Trump supporters are not attracted to his policies. They’re attracted to his attitude — his willingness and evident delight in skewering the people they hate and who they feel look down on them.

[…]

People will absorb hardship, hunger and pain. They will be grateful for jobs, cars and benefits. But if you make people feel humiliated, they will respond with a ferocity unlike any other emotion, or just refuse to lift a finger for you. As Nelson Mandela once observed, “There is nobody more dangerous than one who has been humiliated.”

By contrast, if you show people respect, if you affirm their dignity, it is amazing what they will let you say to them or ask of them. Sometimes it just takes listening to them, but deep listening — not just waiting for them to stop talking. Because listening is the ultimate sign of respect. What you say when you listen speaks more than any words.

[…]

When George Floyd was being held down by three policemen, one with a knee on his neck, as he pleaded for his mother and onlookers filmed on their phones, he was not just being restrained — he was being humiliated. 

[..]

Unless Biden finds a way to speak to the sense of humiliation felt by many working-class voters … even Trump’s failure to deal with the pandemic may not be enough to turn these voters against him.

[…]

Trump’s goal in this campaign is to separate Biden from Biden voters by making it as difficult as possible for Biden voters to vote. Biden’s goal should be to separate Trump from Trump voters by showing that he respects them and their fears — even if he does not respect Trump.

There’s more, but I think you get the idea.

So I guess the question is: How many of us have the patience and forbearance to do as Mr. Friedman suggests — show respect towards Trump supporters and listen to their concerns?

And more importantly, how many think Biden will be able to convince Trump’s supporters that he respects them and acknowledges their fears?

99 thoughts on “Politics of Humiliation”

  1. I am afraid that I will fail at this task. It is hard fir me to “respect” utter nonsense. On either side of the political spectrum, to be sure. It’s just that there is SO MUCH NONSENSE associated with Trump support.

    Liked by 4 people

    • Oh, the media and their Cletus safaris, always trying to “understand” Trump supporters. I am really tired of being told to show patience and forbearance and respect and understanding toward people who hate my guts and hate the guts of pretty much everyone else who isn’t like them. How about asking them to show patience and forbearance and respect and understanding toward the people they despise for a change?

      Sure, for a politician like Biden it may be of tactical value, in hopes of winning over some of them as voters. He’s already doing a lot of that by talking about trying to work together with Republicans after he’s elected, even though he knows better than anyone that that’s impossible (he was Obama’s VP for eight years — he saw firsthand what it’s like trying to work with them).

      Some people are not vicious and cruel because they’re humiliated or whatever. They’re just vicious and cruel because that’s the way they are.

      Liked by 3 people

      • Infidel: I recommend you check out this blogger, if you have not already perused his amazing screeds. Heywood introduced me to the term “Cletus Safari”.

        http://hammeroftheblogs.blogspot.com/

        His current screed is pretty epic;.

        It’s the rest of the animals in the zoo — not just the people who work for him, whether at the State Department or at Fox News; but the Republicon congress-weasels who worked their way into their offices back when Trump was a broke clown between trophy wives; the Democrat congress-weasels whose worst nightmare is saying anything that might be objectionable to some pearl-clutching idiot in the Midwest; and most of all, the broke-ass redneck derelicts who have nothing to gain and everything to lose, and would rather cut their own throats so they can trade retarded Fakebook memes with the dopes they dropped out of high school with. That last group does it all for free.

        I did read a better than average version of a Cletus Safari in which they visited Kenosha and Racine. But I was left confused because there was the usual stubborn “I’m stickin’ with My Man because he knows how to talk to THE PEOPLEZ” along with “they feel nobody LISTENED TO THEM” which shows a shocking lack of historical knowledge (there ancestors had to join hard core unions and FIGHT for any rights…and the plutocrats of the past certainly did not listen to them either.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Understanding Trump supporters is not too hard. Listen to the rhetoric. Watch what they do. See the people they vote to represent them. That isn’t very hard, is it. No Cletus Safari needed. Trump is the head. Where the head goes the body follows. It is not that Trump created this condition in people, but they have met, recognized that they are kindred spirits, and formed a coalition of hate.

        All through the 60s and 70s, James Baldwin was writing and speaking about this. Asking White people to recognize that the protests and rioting was because of the situation they have put the Black community in.

        Sixty years on, and conditions have improved very little. Blacks are being killed in public in daylight ij front of cameras and have no fear of answering for their actions. And White people still ask “what do the Black people want?”

        A moral reckoning is upon us, and we have to decide, once and for all, whether or not we will truly be a multiracial democracy.
        Glaude Jr., Eddie S. Begin Again . Crown. Kindle Edition.

        No matter how hard he tried, no matter how often he prophesied doom, the country refused to change. America simply doubled down on its ugliness, in different ways. White Americans, he concluded, had to save themselves.
        Glaude Jr., Eddie S. . Begin Again . Crown. Kindle Edition.

        Liked by 2 people

  2. Thinking on this….your earlier post about trumpers hating the liberals. Well I think the better word might be hating the elites, the college educated, the academics, people involved in the arts, writing, people who’ve had successful careers etc.

    And here this post, the word humiliation, I think the better word might be indignation.

    I know trumpers and humiliation would be the last word I’d attribute to them, as mostly they are arrogant and self righteous and feel entitled.

    And why me a middle class older woman, high school degree only, no fabulous career does not feel any of this indignation or humiliation and they do is the crux of the issue.

    Trumpers feel whatever they feel about blacks and other minorities due to their view that they get free stuff. I don’t feel that. I feel poor and disenfranchised people need a hand up.

    They crazily feel their Christianity is being taken away from them, which is totally absurd. The fact is they are pushing pushing their religion on the rest of us. That’s not humiliation.

    Abortion, gay marriage…why do they care beyond it’s not for them to do? Their choice. Why would that be humiliation? “Holier than though” is more like it.

    And the rich certainly don’t feel humiliated. They feel entitled and the “right” to get as much money and power as they can and the hell with anyone else. This is not humiliation either.

    I think it more has to do with fear, hate, racism, homophobia, their 401Ks and on and on. And maybe a big factor is not being able to admit they might be wrong about trump or more likely, they simply care for no one but themselves.

    Anyway…my two cents😊

    Liked by 7 people

    • And I like your two cents!

      I felt the article made some good points in that his supporters are more interested in defending their personal prejudices than they are his actual politics. Many could care less about the latter.

      And I agree about the word “humiliation.” I tend to think the columnist was off-base on that. But it makes for good discussion, right?

      Liked by 1 person

      • Nan, I’ll be honest. There are problems on both sides. I admit that.

        But, I feel there is more hatred, and disdain coming from people on the left than the other way around. People are labelled as “deplorables,” “smelly Wal-Mart shoppers.” In more than a few instances, if it is known that someone is a Trump supporter, their job can be at risk.

        Folks are literally assaulted on the streets for wearing a Maga hat or a patriotic type tee shirt. You saw what happened to Rand Paul as he left the Trump rally.

        There is more than one instance where if a conservative speaker attempts to speak at a university, every attempt will be made to shut them down sometimes by violence. How these folks suppose that anyone will be won to their way of thinking apart from civil and thoughtful discourse is beyond my understanding.

        Further, Trump folks are labeled as racist, xenophobic, crazy religious fanatics, every name in the book.

        I mean these folks don’t even know who you are at all. They simply buy into a stereotype that in part is pushed by certain folks in the media.

        They just automatically disdain and hate you. It’s so sad. I know plenty of people who actually keep their support for Trump a secret because of all this.

        But, it definitely does not make for a unified society or the probability of working together in the future regardless of who wins the election. It’s one thing to feel that your opposition is wrong, deceived, or misinformed. It’s another to think they are all evil with malevolent motives.

        I suppose for me the bottom line is that we can only control our own actions and response, not that of others. I certainly don’t want to fall into this cycle of retribution and become part of the problem myself.

        Thanks for the post.

        Liked by 1 person

        • “Nan, I’ll be honest. There are problems on both sides. I admit that.”
          I’m glad you are being honest and pointing out “problems on both sides”. The problem is, you only noted things we wild-eyed liberals have done; all these evil things, none of which, I don’t think you can show really happened. Do you think you were honest?

          “There are good people, on both sides”, Trump said.

          Mr. Trump reposted eight tweets from John K. Stahl, a conservative former political candidate

          Mr. Stahl has called Ms. Abrams “Shamu” and posted racist remarks about Joy Reid, the African-American MSNBC host. “When you’re born butt ugly, changing your hairstyle every day is only going to make you look phonier than you nonsense, pathetic show,” he wrote of Ms. Reid, calling her a “skank.”

          HSS spokesman Michaell Caputo made wild and crazy rants about a host of unsupported claims. It will be on the evening news, unless you are watching Fox.

          Jim Bakker calls for Right-Wing
          Christian civil war.‘I’m scared for America. I really am,” Bakker said. “I want to warn America … we’ve got a few more days to stand up. It’s going to be too late after the election, I believe. I think if we elect the wrong people—and you see how wrong it’s been—we’re gonna have a revolution.”

          Joined by Kenneth Copeland:
          “Lack of knowledge,” Copeland replied. “Any Christian who stays at home and doesn’t vote is guilty of murder. Every person who votes for someone knowing that they push for abortion and to kill a baby anytime they want to kill it, they’re just as guilty as the doctor that performed the abortion. There’s no way around.”

          Trump cultist, QAnon conspiracy theorist, and failed congressional candidate DeAnna Lorraine served as an in-studio guest host on Infowars last night, where she and extremist right-wing conspiracy theorist Alex Jones alleged that former First Lady Michelle Obama is a man and that Bill Gates is an alien.
          “Theres videos of her where she looks like she’s got a flaccid eight-inch rubber snake in her pants,” Jones replied. “We’re talking like a foot-and-a-half long thing. She’s adjusting it. It’s flopping around. It’s halfway to the knee. And the word is, you know, she’s pitching, he’s catching.”

          Niki Haley, Rick Perry: Trump is God’s man of the hour. God wants conservative Christians and Evangelicans to be in charge of America.
          These are the stars of Q-Anon, One America News. Breitbart. The Right-wing treasure trove. These, along with Fox are the major source of Right-Wing ‘news’.

          O. K. That’s more than enough. As usual, I have labored the point. But each of those comments has a site behind them, so you can do a little search and find more information than you want. I could not find anything good to post for your side. (I didn’t try.)

          Do you see what we did there? A fine example of humiliation politics. Dear Leader does it every day on public media.
          A fine example of a failure to listen and speak. Finger-pointing and blaming.

          Liked by 3 people

          • I’m being honest about my experience and perception, Cagjr. But, I freely acknowledge that there are problems coming from some conservative people as well. I want to add that people are always going to get into trouble when they assume that any political party speaks for God. Who determines this?

            I’ve had Christian friends in the past who feel that if Jesus were alive today, he would be a socialist. And, all Christians to be consistent should support socialism. And, then of course there’s Jim Bakker who I think has deep problems and issues.

            My head is spinning. If there’s going to be a civil war, I’m not showin up. Seriously, we’re all Americans and we need to hold on to each other no matter what. Hope that things will go better with you and your family in the future, Cagir.

            I try to be as objective as possible, and look at the issues at hand, not so much personalities, and make the best decision. If I’m wrong, I’m wrong, but I will vote for the policies and direction that I think will be best for our country in the long term.

            Liked by 1 person

          • I’ll begin with this: I do not want to claim your God as mine. I have only seen this from Republicans, Republican operatives, and those Fundamental Right-Wing Christians, those White supremacist militiamen sporting the stars and stripes, the stars and bars, and out-sized crosses. All Democrats are not Atheists, but I have not seen them making any claims such as “my candidate is God’s man.”

            Jesus would perhaps be a communist. He led a commune according to scripture. His followers formed into small communes having some disciples as their leader. It may be that your Christian friend needs to study the scripture a little closer. Jim Bakker certainly has problems, but he still keeps a flock large enough to keep him on the air. Unless his silver snake oil products and the FDA don’t bring him down.

            If there is a civil war, it will come to you. My point is that right-wing nut jobs are calling for civil war. Trump threatens federal force against protesters. He lumps first amendment rights activity in with rioting. At the same time, militias take over statehouses and he cheers them on. And these militias are not government regulated militias; they are white supremacists. My head spins also, Becky. Trump humiliates us, day by day, yet the GOP Senate, Moscow Mitch, refuses to stop him.

            I try to be objective and honest. I try to examine facts and have the information to make my decisions. I compare what the constitution calls for and compare what the administration is doing by that measure. It looks bad for democracy. I suspect that I know how you vote, going by your remarks. If my guess is right, your vote was wrong. If you are wrong you are wrong. But look around the country and see what is going on. Everything we see is wrong.

            Liked by 1 person

          • Jim Bakker doesn’t have “deep issues and problems”. He is a slick, successful snake oil salesman who has found a successful schtick to make himself very, very rich. By the definition of conservative Mammonites (which Is what I call American Christians, because they worship MAMMON, not any Jesus or Yahweh) in the GOP, Jim Bakker is a screaming success.

            Liked by 3 people

          • Becky: “[…] If I’m wrong, I’m wrong, but I will vote for the policies and direction that I think will be best for our country in the long term.”

            Zoe: What policies and direction do you think are best for your country in the long term? Keeping those “best” policies and direction in mind, what does another 4 years with Trump as president look like to you? Do you trust Donald Trump?

            Nan, if this is out of line, just delete my comment.

            Liked by 1 person

          • Becky: “I try to be as objective as possible, and look at the issues at hand, not so much personalities, and make the best decision.”

            Zoe: My god I beg you, consider your president’s personality.

            Liked by 1 person

    • Awesome post, Mary. I think part of it also is they are losing their entitlement to look down upon…or BEAT DOWN the previously (still) marginal groups. And that angers them. “What do you mean my buddies and I can;t beat up the sissies anymore. And why are there n-words in our town now?”

      Liked by 4 people

      • Trump is sitting at the head of the Right-wing beast. It is made up of Fundamental Christians and a host of hate groups. Everything that is not white is hated. Christianity always supported slavery. The government made it legal and the church sanctified it. Their record is pretty clear. Along that line, Christianity wants to be the state religion. If possible they will outlaw every religion but Christianity and make it mandatory for all citizens to participate. I think od Europe under the Catholic church from, say 1100-1500.

        I just finished Eddie Glaude’s book, begin again. He is writing about James Baldwin and all the things Baldwin covered concerning the plight of Blacks from the early 60s. It points out that White people have never learned the lesson of who we are. All the killings, the rioting, and burning. The Black Panthers and Black Power movements. the marches, the church bombings, the shutting down of voting rights. All the things the Blacks fought and died for, the Whites never saw that they were the cause. They still don’t. Not those conservative white Republicans. All they see is the Blacks refuse to ‘stay in their place’.

        But, look at how many more White people we see getting involved. Because we are beginning to feel our lives being down-graded. We can support each other because we are drawing closer. Black people have been fighting this battle for 416 years. Even when they were most oppressed they recognized America as their country. The time we can hide behind white privilege is ending.

        “The genocide of native peoples, slavery, racial apartheid, Japanese internment camps, and the subordination of women reveal that our basic creed that “all men are created equal” was a lie, at least in practice.”
        Glaude Jr., Eddie S. Begin Again (p. 8). Crown. Kindle Edition.

        “But the lie’s most pernicious effect when it comes to our history is to malform events to fit the story whenever America’s innocence is threatened by reality. When measured against our actions, the story we have told ourselves about America being a divinely sanctioned nation called to be a beacon of light and a moral force in the world is a lie.”
        Glaude Jr., Eddie S. . Begin Again (p. 8). Crown. Kindle Edition.

        The t\Times Are A-changing

        Come senators, congressmen
        Please heed the call
        Don’t stand in the doorway
        Don’t block up the hall
        For he that gets hurt
        Will be he who has stalled
        The battle outside ragin’
        Will soon shake your windows
        And rattle your walls
        For the times they are a-changin’

        Liked by 2 people

        • Cagir, I’m about to study my Spanish, but wanted to make a few brief comments. How can people want to abolish the separation of church and state, and be conservative/libertarian at the same time? I would fight against this tooth and nail. Conservative/libertarian people are inclined to want limited govt., greater personal liberty and freedom. So to claim to be conservative and work against the separation clause is an oxymoron. IMO, these folks have probably fallen into a cult.

          I feel like we need to evaluate the origin and founding of our nation based in the culture of the time. In 1776, slavery was an institution accepted around the world. By our standards, virtually everyone would be considered racist. Wars of conquest were common and accepted. The Indian people on the North American continent fought one another in wars of conquest, took captives and slaves. Some practiced human sacrifice.

          I feel like our Declaration set forth a guiding light, a principle which overtime came to a more complete fruition with the abolition of slavery.. Women were given voting rights, etc. Do you see what I’m saying? Our nation needs to be compared to what was going on in other parts of the world during this time rather than to a perfect utopian vision, or even the standards of today.

          Also, I’ve had some experience of the Black Panthers while in school. Cagir, they were violent. We had a speaker come to my university class, and advocate holding a gun to the head of a kid to get him to read. I couldn’t believe my ears.

          I would totally agree with you that systemic racism was a problem in our past. And, I would have been totally supportive of MLK and the civil rights movement, as well as earlier affirmative actions programs.

          Even today, we are not free of racism. No nation can ever be because we are flawed imperfect humans.

          However, when I look at the problems that many Blacks face in our inner cities today, I think racism is probably one of the least of the concerns.

          Do you really believe that the average white person wants to hold back a person of color, or wishes them ill? Or, that most employers, places of business, or schools are going to truly discriminate against African Americans? If anything, I feel like many businesses and schools actively attempt to recruit minorities wanting to be diverse.

          Right now, I feel like this division by race, is very damaging to our country. I also think it’s hurtful to the African-American community as well. For the record, here, I also want to say that I don’t hate anyone. One of my own grandsons is bi-racial.

          But, would you share with me Cagir, what leads you to feel that all white people are privileged because they just happen to be white, or why you feel as if your life is being downgraded? Clearly, we don’t see this in the same way.

          Pax.

          Like

          • God have mercy, I’ve misspelled another name. Can I blame this on my eyesight?? 🙂 I’m running out of excuses. 🙂

            One more thing, in general. you know, I think there are both conservative and more progressive people who want to help the poor, and those that are down and hurting. But, the problem is we disagree about the best way to go about doing this. My feeling is that we can work toward equality of opportunity, and I feel that some initiatives under Trump have started to do this…But, it’s not possible to guarantee an equality of results without also taking away personal freedom. People are all different.

            When I worked as a social worker in Child Welfare, I would do my best to support people in coming out of poverty, things like finding employment, going back to school, budget and household management, etc. parenting skills… help for addiction.

            Some jumped on this support with both feet, and did well. Others were simply looking for that govt. check, and sadly to do the least possible. I could feel like I was working harder than them in wanting to get their kids back. At times, it was quite sad and frustrating.

            Like

          • To Becky …

            You’ve no doubt heard the old saying about walking a mile in another man’s shoes. In case you’re unfamiliar with its actual meaning … before judging someone, you must understand his experiences, challenges, thought processes, etc.

            Another way of saying it is until someone has “been there, done that,” s/he should not judge what the experience is like. Another word that fits is empathy — Understanding and entering into another’s feelings.

            Trump has never walked in the other person’s shoes, nor has he been there, done that … thus he possesses zilch empathy.

            You are under a very deep layer of misunderstanding if you actually believe that he has offered “some initiatives” to help the less fortunate. He could care less.

            Liked by 3 people

          • From my experience Becky if the extreme right capitalists are paying some sort of positive attention to the poor it is to gain votes not because they have any sympathy. Trump as we know is extreme right and only cares for himself unless he can get political value so it is easy to put one and one together to get nothing.

            Liked by 1 person

          • Becky: “Some practiced human sacrifice.”

            Zoe: Assuming you continue in your Christian faith to partake of the Lord’s Supper? This is the body, this is the blood. A celebration of human sacrifice. Eat the body of Christ. Drink his blood. Oh yes, yes, of course, Jesus was also God so that doesn’t count. 🙄 Oh yes, and just a symbol in remberance. 🙄

            Why emphasize a certain group of people for practicing sacrifice?

            Liked by 2 people

          • I think the fact that Becky can point out the outlandish behavior of other adherents to other gods should give her pause to be a little more curious about her own. They worship the gods they created in their image, just as she does.

            “So much blood has been shed by the Church because of an omission from the Gospel: “Ye shall be indifferent as to what your neighbor’s religion is.” Not merely tolerant of it, but indifferent to it. Divinity is claimed for many religions, but no religion is great enough or divine enough to add that new law to its code.”

            Mark Twain

            He was referring to all the carnage of the religious wars and the sacrifice of human beings sacrificed by the priesthood to defend the prominence of their gods. By choice, mankind worships the gods who best fit their needs. When I try to count the number of gods I realize I cannot choose just one so I choose none.

            My natural curiosity overwhelmed my religious piety.
            Nelson, Willie. It’s a Long Story

            Liked by 1 person

          • Becky: “Do you really believe that the average white person wants to hold back a person of color, or wishes them ill? ”

            Zoe: Do you have a rough estimate, numbers that is, of how many “average white” people there are?

            Consider if you will that for the most part, you haven’t a clue about the average white person and what they think about colour. Having a black (actually bi-racial) president sure shook up those average white people didn’t it?

            Liked by 1 person

          • Zoe, I don’t know anyone of my acquaintance that was “shook up. ” I mean think about this. Black folks make up about thirteen percent of our population. If a significant number of white people were terrible racists, how on earth was Obama elected in the first place, let alone for a second term.

            I’m tellin ya, most people don’t deeply care about race in the way that people on the left in our country seem to believe.

            Again, I have to say it, are there some racists out there.? Of course, they are in every country and culture. But, overall, my opinion is that the US is one of the least racist countries on the planet.

            Like

          • Becky: ” If a significant number of white people were terrible racists, how on earth was Obama elected in the first place, let alone for a second term.”

            Zoe: Because a significant number of white people aren’t racists. Praise Jesus.

            Liked by 1 person

          • No one in their right mind is claiming that “all white people are privileged” or even that most white people are racist. That’s not the issue. Given the normal amount of interpersonal interaction that takes place, assuming only 10% of the white population is seriously racist, the typical black person would still constantly be encountering racism. There’s also a serious and pervasive problem of police violence against black people in situations where white people are almost never subjected to such violence, for example, the numerous shootings of blacks for trivial reasons while the Kenosha shooter was not even stopped by the police.

            It’s a complicated problem, but it can’t be hand-waved away by attributing absolutist views to anti-racists that most do not actually hold.

            Denialism about the problem of racism is, by the way, highly toxic to the conservative cause. Most black Americans are basically politically moderate, and many even have fairly socially-conservative views and are more religious than average. But as long as conservatives and the Republican party use word-games and whataboutism to downplay or deny the magnitude of the problem of racism, they will never have any hope of winning a substantial number of black Americans’ votes. Derogatory rhetoric about immigrants and the “Chinese virus” is in the process of similarly driving away Latino and Asian voters. You can come up with reasons to “justify” such rhetoric which sound convincing to yourselves, but what you persuade yourselves of inside your own heads does not have any effect on objective reality in the outside world.

            Liked by 3 people

          • And I would like to add … if the Kenosha shooter had been BLACK, there would have been reams of coverage on the individuals that were killed … who they were, how old they were, if they were married, how many kids they had, what they did for a living, etc., etc., etc. It would have been splashed all over the news.

            So I’m going to ask — how many know … without looking it up … ANYTHING about the two guys that were killed (with an illegal weapon, by the way)?

            Liked by 1 person

          • how many know … without looking it up … ANYTHING about the two guys that were killed

            I’ve read that they both had extensive violent-criminal backgrounds, though I don’t remember the details. Which does not mean any random person had the right to shoot them dead in the street. That’s not how a real justice system works.

            Liked by 1 person

          • Becky. I have trouble understanding why you say some of these things. We all know that if you listen to Fox and Breitbart, or OANN and then listen to any other non-Trump biased source there is a great difference in what you hear. It is called ‘spin’. Remember Bill O’Reilly?
            The “No Spin Zone”? And spin is all he did. What Fox nor any outlet cannot honestly do is tape the same press event and come away with different videos/audiotapes. I’m talking about the substance of Trump’s or anyone else’s speech. When you watch that video and listen to the commentator, there should be no difference in the substance of the speech.

            I do listen to Fox, occasionally. I have to know what they are saying. I want to know what their spin is if Trump hasn’t already told me. Most networks show clips from Fox segments. I’m not sure Fox does the same, but sometimes we need to see and hear them for our own good.

            The way that propaganda works best is when it is the only source of news. The first thing a dictator does is shut down every source of news. Even before he was elected, Trump was calling the press “fake news.” And when asked about his relationship with the press he said he would never let up on his abusive rhetoric.

            I read through your earlier comments and made som notes because I intended to respond. The most glaring thing, to me, is that you hit almost every dog whistle. And you managed to say ” systemic racism was a problem in our past”, then after another statement about MLK, you then said, “Even today, we are not free of racism.”

            “But, would you share with me Cagir, what leads you to feel that all white people are privileged because they just happen to be white”

            I will give you a couple of answers, as I eat my lip.

            I feel that I am privileged to be white because I have been white all my 79+ years. I’ve had fairly good schools to attend and have never been turned away from a school because of white. I have never been refused service in a restaurant because of white. I have never been slapped across my face because of white. I have never been denied my voting rights because of white. I’ve never been kicked and spit on because of white. My community has never been redlined because of white. I have never had laws written specifically to deny any of my constitutionally guaranteed rights. I have never been placed in a particular legislative district to curtail my representation. I have never had to rely on a Green Book to make my way across the country. I have never been accused of being an uppity white. I have never been told where to sit on public transportation. I have always drunk from the fountain which said “White Only.”

            I suppose white privilege is so common among white people that they never think about it or explain how much they appreciate their white privilege. Until, of course, some uppity Black has the gall to ask to share in the same kind of freedoms that Whites do. Then Whites get this attitude that somehow, by some inexplicable reason, they suddenly realize their privilege and fear that sharing that with Black people will somehow diminish their privilege. It is as though they think they are superior to all other humans. They are afraid they will no longer be White Supremacists, but just plain vanilla White. Not better than anyone.

            But in spite of all that, some of my best friends are White. We don’t associate much, but yeah, I know some Whites. Ergo no prejudice. Right?

            “Clearly, we don’t see this in the same way”
            Clearly, we do not see this the same way. I was raised in the upper South, so yeah, racial prejudice was always with us, just like religion. It is a burden society stuck us with. It was part of my makeup. Was? I try to make that be so. I work at it. I was not born Christian or racist. But it was fed to me along with my mashed carrots and peas.

            I still eat carrots and peas. Not.

            (I don’t know why this window says ‘reply to Nan.)

            Liked by 2 people

          • Well, ok, Cagjr, I’ll hang in a bit here.

            You are describing mostly things that have happened in the past. I’m not from the rural south, but I can tell you that today in my area if any business owners attempted to discriminate against people of color, they would not remain in business long. It would be over for them with a lawsuit pending. Toast!!

            In my experience both in life and through my work in the human service field, I think if there is privilege it’s more centered in things like intact two parent families or perhaps socio/economic class. It’s not just a matter of race.

            Do you know that there are people of color who find this whole notion of “white privilege” condescending and patronizing?

            And, how bout when Mr. Biden made the statement to the interviewer, “If you don’t vote for me, you ain’t Black.” I cringed as if all African-American people must think and speak in the same way.

            There’s as much diversity in the Black community as anywhere else.

            Cagjr, people are individuals. Look at another issue. As I’ve mentioned, I care deeply for the poor, but I also strongly support free markets. I feel that overall the free enterprise system is the best way to generate wealth and lift people from poverty in the long term. It’s difficult for me to imagine why anyone would want to live in a totally socialist society.

            Do you honestly feel that all the politicians in Cuba or Venezuela care deeply for the poor and disenfranchised?

            The bottom line for me is that I think we can’t determine the motives or character of a person based solely in whether they favor capitalism or socialism, or whether they are progressive or more conservative politically. We can’t stereotype people just based in whether they favor Trump or Mr. Biden.

            It’s so much deeper and more complex.

            Last word goes to you my friend.

            Like

          • Becky: “The bottom line for me is that I think we can’t determine the motives or character of a person based solely in whether they favor capitalism or socialism, or whether they are progressive or more conservative politically. We can’t stereotype people just based in whether they favor Trump or Mr. Biden.”

            Zoe: Well for me I sure can determine the motives or character of a person who thinks Trump is better than Biden. They are not paying attention to the man behind the curtain and they are not paying attention to those who prop him up. My god they (Republicans) thought he was a racist, criminal, cheater and immoral when they were running against him and they are on tape. Now they bow down at his feet. Here’s where I determine your character. What planet are you living on? This man lies through his teeth about the truth and then comes out and admits well yeah but I don’t want to upset anyone and cause a panic. Republicans who couldn’t stand him now murmur behind his back. Shhh! Hold on. Hold your nose, roll your eyes, stay the course . . . good grief Becky. Building an empire of their own upon the genocide of those who have died and are yet to die because of Trumps wonderful policies to fight coronavirus. Why don’t you get him out of here by not voting for him and help Biden win, hold your nose for 4 years until the Republicans can find someone that can do the job and I’m not suggesting it be Pence (mother for forgive him) or Barr or any QAnon conspiracy theorists.

            Becky turns away. Poor Zoe. She just doesn’t understand the “larger picture.”

            Liked by 1 person

    • I am describing and bringing to the argument that these things happened in the life of the majority of minorities and most egregiously for the Blacks. For you, those things are ‘in the past’ or non-existent. Therein lies a problem. I actually heard (or read) a ‘Christian’ woman declare that Blacks should forgive Whites for slavery. (I will not search it out now, but everyone is invited to help. Prove it wrong or prove it right.) Because you cannot ‘see’ discrimination does not mean it does not exist. How many communities in your area are ‘redlined’? Redlined areas are those places identified on a map as being mostly Black/minority/poor-white areas. Banks use this information to screen out ‘those people’ from financial help. (No loans)

      The laws and regulations preventing discrimination in businesses exist because Black people protested, took beatings, etc., until politicians could not ignore it any longer. Otherwise, I would still have my ‘whites-only’ lunch counter.

      Intact two-parent families. That is an old dog-whistle from the Nixon/Reagan campaigns. Since you work in the human services field you may also be familiar with Welfare Cadillacs and Welfare Queens. Human service, public health clinics, food pantries, etc. were created out of the need for ‘disadvantaged’ communities. Since you work in the field you may have an understanding of why/how/where disadvantaged communities exist.

      Liked by 1 person

    • Becky,
      White privilege.
      No, I do not know any POC who think that. I learned the term from POC. I can see that would be possible as I know there are POC who are Republicans and who support Trump. I don’t understand it, but there it is. I thought about that a lot. Finally, it dawned on me that it is none of my business who Black people support; we all vote for what we believe. That realization was encouraging after all as it means we are no different, except that skin pigment. So. No longer a reason to harbor our prejudices?

      “Other commentators propose alternative definitions of whiteness and exceptions to or limits of white identity, arguing that the concept of white privilege ignores important differences between white subpopulations and individuals and suggesting that the notion of whiteness cannot be inclusive of all white people.” James Dunn

      I do not know in what context Biden made that statement or when. Feel free to remind me.
      The best way to learn how POC feel about anything is to listen to them when they make their statements. Black Lives Matter. Do you know why we have come to this point? White privilege which drives racial prejudice. White people ignore the concerns of POC until they are forced to deal with it. The effect is protests, riot, burning, breaking, and looting. The cause is White indifference to the needs of our minority citizens, the ease with which white policemen kill Black men and youths, the lack of funding for the schools in areas in which Blacks are pushed, and all those past infractions which White people have so conveniently forgotten.

      I put those down in obverse order on purpose to point out that there is no effect without a cause. White indifference is the cause. Protest, and all the ugly things it leads to are the effect. Read some of James Baldwin, W. E. B. Du Bois, Ralph Ellison, Toni Morrison, and Eddie Glaude.

      Liked by 1 person

    • Becky,
      A free Market. You believe in a free market? Have you ever experienced a free market? There is not a market that is not manipulated. I don’t understand how you can support a free market while caring deeply for the poor. Trump has shut down or severely handicapped every program serving our needy people.

      Way back in the early 70s, on my way home I stopped in our local mom & pop for a bottle of milk. I don’t recall the increase, but the price had gone up from just a few days earlier. I asked why the increase and the answer was, “the coal miners got a raise yesterday.” It would be a couple of weeks before the miners got a payday reflecting that raise, but already merchants were eating up their raise. That’s how ‘free market’ works. Top to bottom.

      Who wants to live in a ‘totally socialist society’? Who has ever seen a totally socialist society? If you take time to examine a ‘socialist state’, it is usually a dictatorship. China, Laos, Cuba, and Vietnam have ‘socialist’ governments, but which of these does society govern?

      Do you honestly feel that all the politicians in Cuba or Venezuela care deeply for the poor and disenfranchised?

      I will have to find an instance in which I said I thought Cuba or Venezuela politicians care ‘deeply’ for their citizens. Maybe you can point me there.

      The bottom line. Really? You can’t determine from my arguments that I am a Democrat with decidedly progressive leanings? Complex or diverse?

      Well, I have determined that you are a white person who votes Republican, that you are a supporter of the unarguably worst president in our history, you use all the dog-whistles White Christians Republicans use when talking about ‘those people’, in your work in human services you pass judgment and have an air of disdain when you write about it.

      Last word? That is your call.

      I wish I were better informed than I am. Earlier in this blog, I accused someone of using a straw man argument. He resented that and said so. I went back through the posts and all the way back to Nan’s summary of the blog. It was then I clicked the link back to the original article. I read that and realized I had humiliated myself. I was trying to discuss an article I had not read. That is just plain stupid. A self-inflicted wound.

      I am an Atheist. The church made me an Atheist. I took the same route a lot of people on this blog took. I can safely say that Republicans made me a Democrat. The process of life has made me more accepting of people. I am still trying to outlive my upbringing. Sometimes it hurts but overall it is a trip worth taking. Since I am not as smart as I once thought I was, I try to read all the authors who impact our society for the better. I have a poor education and at my age reading is the only cure.

      Liked by 1 person

      • Cagjr, you have to support and do what you think is right and true. I can’t fault anyone for that.

        I was much more politically progressive as a young person, Liberalism was just the ethos at the university. I remember a professor from N. Vietnam subtly advocating overthrow of the US govt. Democratic socialism was the thing.

        I was conditioned to think that if you truly cared about the poor and the disenfranchised, you had to be politically liberal. It wasn’t until I was much older, and especially when I began to work with disadvantaged populations, both rural whites and people of color in the inner city, I saw for myself that the whole situation was much more complex than I ever imagined.

        If people don’t know me well, they automatically seem to assume that I am politically progressive. I don’t think I fit this stereotype on the surface of what people out here suppose conservative/libertarian people are like, let alone someone who would vote for Trump.

        I think alot of what’s happening in the cities right now is being driven by what I think is truly a false narrative, that the police as a whole are racists, or even worse out to gun down innocent Black people. From studying this as objectively as I can, I don’t think this is true across the board.

        Because of this narrative, police officers are being randomly gunned down. Folks are talking about defunding the police while homicide and crime rates are spiking. Businesses that serve the community have been looted and destroyed.

        As I see it, the deeper and more pressing problem in the inner city is the tremendously high rate of black on black violence and murder, not the police. If Black lives matter, and of course, they do, this is the more urgent concern that needs to be addressed IMO. But, of course, this is not as politically expedient.

        It’s really people of color, the minorities in the city who are going to be most hurt by this whole thing. It’s beyond sad and tragic.

        But, you seem pretty convinced of your position, Cagjr. We will probably have to agree to disagree. 🙂

        Pax.

        Like

        • Becky, this — the tremendously high rate of black on black violence and murder, not the police. has a rather large flaw in it when we’re talking about the injustices to POC.

          I’m not condoning “black on black” violence and murder, but the POLICE are in an entirely different category. There job is to promote law and order — not take it into their own hands, which too many have done over the years. The big difference is that NOW the spotlight has finally been turned on them and their more-than-obvious racist deeds are “out there” for everyone to see.

          My son-in-law is in law enforcement so I’m not condemning every individual who serves in that capacity. But we DO need to weed out the “bad guys” with some kind of police reform … not sit in a air-conditioned and protected environment and make proclamations that “police officers are being randomly gunned down”.

          Like

        • “the police as a whole are racists”

          Becky, I’m not 100% sure, but I don’t believe anyone on this page has declared such a thing. Like any other group we single out, law enforcement is just a slice out of society. Like any other group, a few can bring shame on the whole. But if the number is few, why is it so difficult to clean up their act? If there is no desire to take positive action nothing is going to change.

          Look at this: Number shot to death in 2020
          242 white 61% of the population
          123 black 13.4%
          This does not include all deaths while in police custody.
          Only about 1% of police officers involved with these deaths are charged with a crime and even less are convicted, according to Mapping Police Violence.
          And this is only the number that has been verified.
          https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-death-by-us-police-by-race/

          Objectively? What were your sources? You studied something no one has mentioned.

          According to your comments, nobody is ever going to mistake you for a progressive.

          Black on Black is always thrown into this discussion as though it makes law enforcement playing judge, jury, and executioner O. K. Why not throw in white on white?

          Political expediency? No, it is never expedient to pay attention to the barrios and ghettos. Our politicians notice the inner city when they want a vote and when they explode from their frustration at not having jobs, schools, food markets. All those things we take for granted are out of their reach. When Trump calls himself ‘the law and order’ president he is talking about law and order in Black and minority neighborhoods. There was a grant made earlier in Trump’s reign, which gave money to certain cities to improve housing and such. The money wound up going to real estate developers to upgrade their properties, but not those in minority neighborhoods. Ask Jared.

          You work in Human Services? Whitehouse and GOP lawyers are in court now trying to finish the destruction of the Affordable Care Act. They are doing everything in their power to end all forms of public assistance. When they talk tax cuts, they are talking about cutting support for public assistance. Another dog-whistle.

          There is something we agree on: communities of color and other minority groups will suffer the most. Trump is president. GOP is in the driver’s seat. What is being done?

          Yes. I am convinced that I am on the right side of this discussion. I can turn on the news any time of day or night and see all the evidence anyone could require to re-enforce my view.

          Oh well.

          Liked by 1 person

          • I don’t know what I did wrong. I wondered why Becky did no comment. I will check on how posts are handled. I apologize already.
            Thanx for doing the posting for me, too late for Becky I suppose.

            Like

          • Maybe I should change my user name to Ventus Immensus. I thought of some others I won’t mention. This would the least painful to my ego. Overkill for certain. I seem to always be after the jugular. I think faster than I can type, I skip words and punctuation, and have never had a thought that would not be world-changing. 🙂

            I watch too much news. I read too many books. But I am concerned with the situation we are in, socialy, economicaly, and politicaly. I’m gearing back. Again.

            Liked by 1 person

          • Cagjr, I’m still around, but have just been really busy through the weekend.

            I think the problem with looking at flat statistics across the board, is that, unfortunately, while our Black sisters and brothers comprise just 13 percent of the population, they commit a much greater percentage of violent crime across the board disproportionately, and then are also more likely to come into a negative contact with the police. It’s deeper and more complex than just supposing the police are racist, IMO.

            Here is a video that addresses this guest hosted by an African-American woman. If you would like, we could discuss this. I would like to hear your thoughts, if it’s ok with Nan of course.

            https://www.prageru.com/video/the-candace-owens-show-heather-mac-donald/

            Becky.

            Liked by 1 person

          • Becky, it seems to me you just don’t “get it.” You keep saying the blacks have a disproportionate amount of crimes. This may well be true, but consider the conditions many of them live under. Can you honestly say you would live a full and happy life if you lived in squalor? Would there not be times when you felt you had to “strike out” at the life you’d been handed?

            It’s people like you that wear the “White Privilege” badge and look the other way as the black people cry out in despair. And don’t reference your time working with the disadvantaged. There’s no comparison.

            Liked by 2 people

          • I did not know there was a problem with looking at statistics. I try not to make statements unless I have something to back it up with. I notice you, on the other hand, avoid those arguments which have some facts with them.

            Our Black brothers and sisters commit what percentage of the crime? ‘Much greater’ has no real value that we can use to make comparisons. I understand why you don’t like statistics: them damned old facts get in the way of a good discussion. Why don’t you engage one of your bruthas or sistas and explain to them how that they are the problem, that the police are not killing unarmed people with no fear of facing justice.

            You see lots of things as deeper and more complex, yet you continue with these nonsensical comments. You think that if someone says there are racially prejudiced police that they think all police are. Turning to an argument about the number or percentage of policemen who are prejudiced does not change the fact that Blacks are getting killed. It does not change the fact that the Trump regime are blatant racists. It does not explain the fact that Trump and the GOP are promising coverage for pre-existing conditions, they have a lawsuit before the SCOTUS to have that very part of the ACA thrown out. How many millions of Black, poor, and other minorities will then have no health care? More Flat statistics. You look them up.

            You think I am too shallow to comprehend the real causes of discord in our society. You may be right. You invite me to watch a video from Draper, as though anything coming out of that source has any credibility. You may as well invite me to watch Breitbart or Alex Jones.

            “if it’s ok with Nan of course”
            I don’t know what that is supposed to mean. She has had to call me onto the carpet a time or two because, as you may have noticed, I don’t have many one-word answers. She runs this blog and it is on her to keep people like me in line. I don’t resent it and it never entered my mind that I should as permission to be here.

            Liked by 2 people

          • Also, want to add that I think we need sensible health care reform that still covers pre-existing conditions.

            But, for me, Cagjr, and others I’ve spoken with, “The Affordable Care Act” was a disaster. I’m an ordinary middle class person, but at the sametime, I made enough income to not qualify for a subsidy. My insurance costs went through the roof. I’m talkin doubling, almost tripling the cost of my previous medical insurance. And, never mind the high deductibles, and co pays.

            At first, I thought to do without health insurance, but that was risky, and against the law, fines, etc… So, I opted for medi-share. This worked out well when I was healthy, but unfortunately after a bout with Legionella pneumonia, and a stay in the ICU, despite this insurance, I still ended up having to pay thousands of dollars for my care out of pocket.

            There has to be another solution other than universal health care run by the govt. of course. 🙂 I’m open to hearin ideas. 🙂

            Liked by 1 person

          • There has to be another solution other than universal health care run by the govt. of course.

            Of course? What do you suggest, Becky? And why do you and many others think UHC is so bad? Because it’s a government-sponsored program? The government is designed to benefit all Americans, but there is overwhelming evidence that this is not the case.

            Liked by 1 person

          • You think we need sensible health care? I would like you to describe that to me. Excuse me, but I doubt you’ve spoken to anyone about ACA. For the millions who are still on it, it seems to be working, even with the GOP continually trying to destroy it. Do you remember when Bill Clinton called on Hillary to start work on a health care program? That is when the GOP allowed their brains to run out their ears. Do you know how many healthcare plans the GOP has come up with?

            You worry about the government running our healthcare? Who do you think is running it now? Liberal Democrats? Our legislators write the laws that pharma, insurance companies, lawyers, and probably some doctors tell them to. A Point in fact: the GOP contribution to healthcare was to pass a law that the Social Security Administration could not bargain with pharms for better drug prices. It started under Clinton but was not approved until Dubya. They banned SS from bargaining for better drug prices. Unbelievable, huh? When you talk to people about ACA, point out that little nugget. Explain to them that that is the reason we 100% more for medication than any other nation.

            When you get through screaming about the cost of insurance going up under ACA, go back and read about the legislation. The GOP took over both houses of Congress before the legislation was completed. They refused to fund that part of the program that would have kept everyone’s insurance rates down. They cut it off at the knees and then blamed Obama because it didn’t provide what was claimed. For a plan that you and most conservatives point out as a failure, it is still going. For all their efforts they just can’t find a way to kill it. It is a reminder of their incompetence at governance. They have never done anything on their own. They dance for their corporate bosses, writing the laws they want rather than what their voters need.

            They have never given up on privatization. They want Social Security, Veterans Administration, Post Service, Education, criminal detention, and any other service providing agency. You think your insurance went up when the GOP sabotaged ACA? Wait until you see what the capitalists have in store for you.

            Before the HMO’s and insurance companies took over healthcare, just about everybody could afford to see a doctor and afford their medicine. HMOs and the insurance industry are not government agencies.

            There has to be another solution than universal healthcare? It is not some fantastical socialist entity that you are paying now, assuming all that is honest, it is the insurance, pharmaceutical. health management organizations that are gouging prices. And don’t forget the hospitals where two Tylenol cast $12.

            I see you haven’t done any homework. You’ve copied from Paul Ryan’s paper. He was a failure, too, you know.

            Trump now owns the courts, so the ACA may well be dead pretty soon. He also owns the GOP and the justice department. He doesn’t know anything about governing. He does what the GOP tells him. The GOP does what their capitalist owners tell them. Pretty soon the capitalist will not need either of them.

            The capitalist and the church will do just fine. If Biden doesn’t win. If the Democrats do not take control of both houses you and I will have the same value as sewer rats. When the first Politician took the first bribe from the capitalist lobbyist, democracy began to wither.

            Peace? They cry peace and there will be no peace.

            Liked by 3 people

          • One more thing, Becky. We don’t have universal healthcare because it would greatly reduce the money flowing into the coffers of those who declare it won’t work. It won’t work because they cannot afford for it to work.

            I’m a veteran. My father was a veteran. My grandfather was a veteran, but they didn’t have a VA back then. I know a lot of veterans. Some gripe about their service. Some like it very well. But the people who talk privatization are the politicians and some upper-level VA administrators.

            Why don’t you check the eschatology of the word ‘privatize’?

            Like

  4. Just like any religion, the hard-core fundamental Trump cultists will never see the light. They will die for their beliefs. There is little point in trying to engage with them in meaningful discussion or trying to win them over. They have years and years of de-programming before they will see what is in front of their eyes.

    The more moderate cultists are the ones that will occasionally note that they didn’t really like when he did or said something particular. These less fundamental Trumpists are possibly already regretting the decision they will make in 2 months.

    Liked by 5 people

    • A retired coworker started whining to me that “the Democrats were doing all these evil things to Amurikkkkkkaaaaa” I asked good ol Al’, but Al…your party has been in charge for almost four years. Either Trump is not who you believe he is (which is true) or he is downright incompetent. Obama is not President any more. He accused me of being a Goebels. I suggested drinking the Trump Koolaid result in the DTs, delium trumpens. Like alcohol, right wing media rots the brain.

      Now I will agree slightly with Becky that there are crazy leftists. In the UK, for instance, there are parents who are feeding their 11 year olds hormones to stop puberty until the dears can “decide” which “gender” they really are deep down inside.

      Liked by 1 person

  5. The sting of a reproach is the truth of it.
    B. Franklin

    I agree with Mary on questioning whether the supposed humiliation is because of their lack of education. If we look at his minions they have a wide range of education levels. At the top, multibillionaires. At the bottom, the knuckle-dragging troglodytes. And intermingled with all that is/are the Fundevangelical Christian White supremacists. I know that the term ‘educated elite’ gets thrown a lot and it is an old charge pretty good at rabblerousing.

    Cade: “It will be proved to thy face that thou hast men about thee that usually talk of a noun and a verb and such abominable words no Christian ear can endure to hear.” (WS)

    Cade was calling out a magistrate whom he also chided for building a public school for children. Of course, it was political. He was trying to lead a rebellion in England. He did succeed in exciting the mob enough that he managed to get that person killed.

    Mob mentality may best describe our friends on the Right. One theory I have thought about concerning their outrage is that they are ashamed of what they have created, but being of the ‘superior race’, they have the proper skull size, they cannot admit to their mistake and simply double-down hoping somehow it will work out for their good after all. They are spitting mad at themselves but project that onto us mellowed out Leftists.

    See Brian’s comment. Trying to listen to them is as easy as getting a DRE. Typically, compromise with Republicans means “let’s agree to do it my way.” Egberto Willis has a book called, “It’s worth it: How to Talk To Your Right-wing Relatives, Friends, and Neighbors”. I’m about half-way through its 200+ pages. Maybe it will get more serious in the second half but so far I don’t think he has met any of my red-neck relatives, friends, and neighbors. Conservatives and theists never understand when they have lost an argument/discussion. I can still see my brother wiping slobbers from the corners of his mouth with his thumbs and looking at me like I slapped one of his children/brats.

    Liked by 2 people

  6. Trump did actually say something about he could go and shoot someone and he would still be admired or words to a similar effect, I am sure someone could remember it better than me. Even though he has not shot anyone we know about his worshippers have that devotion that is scary. What happens if Trump were to tell the faithful to arm themselves and for arguments sake sort out the local Democrats or atheists in the communities?

    Liked by 3 people

    • “What happens if Trump were to tell the faithful to arm themselves and for arguments sake sort out the local Democrats or atheists in the communities?”

      Unfortunately, I expect this is exactly what is going to happen in 2021 whether he wins or loses the election.

      Liked by 1 person

      • There is a group called The Socialist Gun Owners Association that is preparing for such an event. 🙂

        Seriously, though. Have you seen the typical Trump rally? Not sure I am all that frightened by the Cletus Corp. Many of them will shoot their own genitals off.

        Liked by 2 people

        • Gun-toting wingnuts have been spouting blood-curdling rhetoric about rising up and slaughtering their enemies for as long as I can remember. It never goes anywhere and it never will. They are mostly stupid and hopelessly disorganized. The last time some of them actually tried to do something, they seized a bird sanctuary visitor kiosk in the boondocks of eastern Oregon, forgot to bring enough socks, and ended up going on the internet begging people to send them snacks. It was a ridiculous fiasco.

          Liked by 1 person

      • Gus, how on earth can you believe this? For one thing, there are atheist/agnostic people who do support Trump. Have you ever listened to the Rubin Report, for instance? It’s not as if there is this sharp dichotomy.

        This is what happens, though, when people don’t talk to each other and assume the worse stereotypes.

        People on both sides of this need to support “the rule of law,” not suppose to take matters into their own hands.

        Good grief.

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        • Just curious, Becky … when the caravan of Trump supporters drove into the protesters in Portland with their flags flying and their guns in sight, chasing down and attacking individuals, firing paintball pellets, using pepper spray on an individual who was already down on the ground … would you say they were “supporting the rule of law”?

          Liked by 3 people

          • Especially because, sad to say, modern American police forces are deeply infested with a culture that is fundamentally racists and classist. Becky also ignores the history of police forces in the United States, which evolved out of Southern Slave Patrols and Northern big city corruption and ethnic group enforcement of racist policies against African Americans (It is not just the South, folks)

            Liked by 1 person

        • there are atheist/agnostic people who do support Trump

          Vanishingly few. In today’s America, the division between fervently-religious and secular essentially is the right-left divide. One can always find individual exceptions, but that doesn’t invalidate the overwhelming reality. Evangelicals and traditionalist Catholics make up most of Trump’s base.

          Liked by 4 people

        • What is your point? Every demographic group has its tools and fools. See: Hermann Caine, Mr. 9.99 tax plan. Sadly, he passed away because he attended a Trump Rally and caught COVID.

          There are gay people who vote Republican. Sometimes greed and libertarian ideological nonsense infects people who should know better.

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  7. Becky: “I feel like we need to evaluate the origin and founding of our nation based in the culture of the time. In 1776, slavery was an institution accepted around the world. ”

    Zoe: Beautiful apologetics. Now, we weren’t that bad. Everyone else was doing it.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Zoe, I’m not trying to say that this was right. But, at the same time, understanding cultural context and seeing the larger picture is important. I mean we actually have folks in our country that want to pull down monuments of George Washington because he owned slaves. I mean, the man lived in the 1700s. How many wealthy people didn’t own slaves and have servants? What about all the other things about him that make him a great man in his time?

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      • Becky: “What about all the other things about him that make him a great man in his time?”

        Zoe: How often I hear this refrain. Especially in the Christian blogs & forums where some Christians are trying to hold sexually abusive pastors, cheating pastors and raping pastors accountable for their sins. Along come their fellow Christians: But, but, what about what he did for Christ? What about all the good things he did?

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      • I’ve mentioned this to you before Becky and I will mention it again, ancestral trauma is brutal and it lingers. It exists. Even your own Bible talks of generational sin. Saying that was then and it no longer applies to everything that goes on today is simply putting your head in the sand.

        Personally, I think Trump was pissed that a black man became president. How dare he step out of bounds and take up residence in our “white” house. Does that boy not know his place in the hierarchy? And it is my opinion that there were a whole lot of people white people shocked that a black man ascended to a position of power and were threatened. How dare he, does he not know his place?

        I think a lot of Trump supporters are people who care only about defending a man who started a conspiracy about Obama’s birth and who has no problem bringing up other conspiracies and lies. He hasn’t a moral cell in his body and he is unfit for the presidency. I have no idea how you can see his character and then wander off into discussions about policy. But of course, well David was a sinner, a murderer and an adulterer . . . and God still used him. Right?

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      • There were many, many people in the same era who were advocating for the abolition of slavery. Some critics note that the REAL reason for the American Revolution was NOT “free-ddddoooooom” but because many American elites were alarmed by the growing clamor against slavery. Throw in British dislike for constant settler genocide and land theft and the refusal of American elites to pay a fair share of their own defense against the French (and the natives), and I would not be quoting the opinions of the American forefathers as any kind of justification FOR RACIST POLICIES AND ACTIONS TODAY, DAMMIT! That is what you are ignoring…the racism and classism if TODAY!

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    • I am honestly ready to accuse Becky of being a somewhat pernicious concern troll. She is so eager to ignore the meat of the matters while mouthing platitudes and being a good obedient citizen in service to the government. She might mean well, but she just ignores the real problems while quoting from 1957 era Civics 101 textbooks. Sorry to be so harsh, but….

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  8. Nan, I’m feeling rather outnumbered, and withdrawing in temporary defeat. 🙂 To answer Zoe’s question, I couldn’t remark right under the comment. I don’t fully trust any politician, and neither Trump nor Biden would have been my first choice.

    But, right now, I do have more confidence in President Trump than in Mr. Biden, and I more deeply agree with the policies of the current administration than I do in the direction of the democrats.

    I feel like we need to work on infrastructure, health care reform that does not involve a one payer govt. run system. I also would like to, of course, see the jobless rate decrease. I like the direction Trump has moved in terms of prison reform, money for Black colleges, opportunity zones in the inner city. I would want to see expanded school choice.

    I also really appreciate that Trump has worked toward peace in the world, and is committed to avoiding our entanglement in foreign conflict. The military/industrial complex hates him for that.

    I feel like he has advocated for the beginning of fairer trade deals which will help the economy in the long term.

    I also think we need to continue to develop sustainables, but I would not want to do away with fossil fuels within a decade or so. We should work, instead, to make these energy sources even cleaner, and also expand the use of nuclear power, IMO.

    Trust me folks, my feelings having nothing to do with this crazy notion of destroying the establishment clause, and forming some kind of theocracy. let alone the hatred of liberals or people of color.

    Nough said. 🙂

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    • I’m a bit amazed, Becky. Are you just now figuring out that you’re outnumbered on my blog?

      I appreciate you laying out why you’re a Trump supporter … although I truly, truly think you’ve been severely misled. But we are all individuals who listen to and agree with the things that “feel right” to us. Even when they’re wrong.

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  9. I’ve tried to have conversations with people who support Trump. I feel like I’m always respectful and thoughtful about my approach. I want to engage and have meaningful conversation about why we all feel the way we do. It seems to me, though, at least with the people I’ve engaged in conversation about it that they get angry when I present factual data to support my arguments. Then I generally get shut down with, “but that’s from a liberal source.” It seems as though anything that doesn’t confirm their bias is just “liberal nonsense.” I’m just confounded as to how to even talk to people because they are very emotional about…everything.

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    • Hi, Ruth, before I go I do want to address your comment. I think we all are very much shaped by what we read and study. It’s almost impossible to find a media source in this country that is unbiased. For instance, people who listen to Fox news and some of the more conservative news sources and podcasts will have a very different view of events than those who listen to CNN or MSNBC. Sometimes, I’ve listened to both outlets talk about the same speech or event, and it’s as if they are not even speaking of the same happening. It’s little wonder people are divided from one another.

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      • I completely agree. I’ve just found that Fox News adherents seem to believe that it is the ONLY quality news source. When I point out that both CNN and FOX News are labeled as News Entertainment and should not be viewed as unbiased I get excoriated by FOX News listeners. Up until recently, that is. The minute they ran a negative news story about the president most of them decided that it, too, is now a liberal news outlet. I should add, though, that I live in the deep south, in an ultra conservative, ultra right-wing area.

        It should be fairly obvious, in my opinion, which parts of a “newscast” are actual facts and which parts are opinion, but apparently that isn’t the case. I think when we take everything a news personality says as gospel fact we’ve officially drank the kool-aid.

        The division is most concerning and I have no idea how to bridge the divide.

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  10. RUTH!! Wow! So great to see your comment! (Especially since I can identify with it. 😄)

    I hope this isn’t just a fly-by and you’ll return to being more active on the blogs. Also hope your absence hasn’t been due to anything negative.

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    • Great to see you as well, Nan!

      It may be fly-by. I hope not, but we’ll see. So, the reason I’ve been absent and may continue to be intermittent:

      First up is that I work full-time and recently received a promotion which, in turn, means I’m busier. That’s a fairly good reason.

      B. I started college recently as well. I know, I know. At my age! But I figure if I’m going to do accounting work I might as well be an accountant and get paid for being one instead of a bookkeeper’s salary. So, another fairly good reason.

      And three: I nearly died. In February I had emergency open heart surgery to replace a busted valve. I had no idea I even had a leaker. I thought I had a respiratory infection that was going around in my office. Went to the doctor to head it off at the pass, or so I thought. Ended up having some additional tests and being admitted to the hospital in congestive heart failure! I know, I know. At my age!

      Liked by 1 person

      • Wow! That last reason is a zinger! Glad they caught everything in time … and that you’re OK. I can appreciate what you’re saying about the work situation. I agree … if you’re gonna be running the numbers, you should be paid the best bucks. Good luck with your schooling.

        And you’re welcome here whenever you can stop by!

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  11. Most Fundagelicals always say we should look back at our founding fathers, the beginning of the nation while they affirm that we were established as a Christian nation. The truth is, our founders were adamant that religion had no place in the government. That is true in the constitution as well as in their correspondence. I don’t think they really want t go there, just use it as a talking point, and their audience thinks it is gospel.

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    • The people who say this kind of stuff are LYING. They know they are LYING. Lying is the core of their career. They don’t care, because the LIES support their pernicious ideologies.

      OK. I am starting to do the RANDOM CAPS thing. Need to calm down. There are posts on this thread that are just IRRITATING 🙂 I need to go the office anyway.

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  12. I agree with Friedman. Maybe not so much specifically his point about humiliation, but the general ideas behind his comments. Elaborating on the research from your previous post on the Hidden Tribes within American politics, there also is a perception gap.

    When Republics and Democrats had to estimate the viewpoints of their ideological opponents on various issues, there was a huge gap between what each group believed and what the other group thought they believed about the issue on average. Overall, people estimated that 55% of all Republicans and Democrats held extreme views, when it reality it was only about 30% who hold views that might be considered extreme. Other findings include the more extreme a person is to the Left or to the Right, the larger their gap in their perception of their ideological opponents. The more one reads ideological news sources, Left or Right, the more likely a higher gap in perception.

    Liked by 1 person

  13. Nan, on a deeper level, who can say how any of us might react depending on life’s circumstances? Yes, we should have compassion for people no matter what.

    My husband came up very poor. He’s Italian. His grandfather immigrated here. The whole family originally worked in the coal mines. The family didn’t even have indoor plumbing until he was practically a teenager. They were all crammed into this little house.

    No one decided to resort to crime, looting and violence because of their living conditions, though.

    I think that there is so much more going on than just poverty and past racial injustice. It’s not that conservative/libertarian people are all looking the other way, and don’t care.

    But, we have very different ideas about cause, and how to really help in the long term than do progressives.

    The only way forward is to find common ground, and move on from there, IMO.

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  14. Nan, I’m not too impressed in how our govt. administers the VA system. Do we really want them running healthcare for the entire country? I also question if govt. run healthcare is not going to result in longer wait times, doctor shortages, and just a poorer quality of care in general, less innovation.

    I’ve read pros and cons concerning govt. run healthcare in some of the European countries and Canada.

    Of course, most of these countries are the size of a state compared to the entire US. We have to find a system that’s right and works for us.

    I just don’t think ObamaCare was it. But, hopefully, we can work together toward viable solutions.

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    • My other-half takes advantage of the VA health system and has had little complaint. Perhaps some facilities are better run than others … but is this any different than some docs being more conscientious about their patients than others?

      Have you read about the SIZE of the medical bills that individuals who contracted Covid-19 and were hospitalized are now facing? Insurance will barely make a dent. And this is the best the U.S. can do?

      Certainly there’s much to be considered and worked out before any kind of MFA can be put into place. But isn’t it at least worth making that effort instead of arbitrarily rejecting it?

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      • I’m sorry Nan. I’ve delivered another of my diatribes. The ink is still wet on my last apology and here I am again, engaged in another circular argument.

        I’m not sure what’s up with Becky. She, if it is indeed a she, may just be a troll, seems to only be able to deliver talking points from some of the lesser important conservative sources. But the fault is with me for responding.

        “I think that there is so much more going on than just poverty and past racial injustice. ”

        Yes, there is Becky. There is the current, open, and accelerated racial injustice.
        These militias are in the news almost daily. They are not “well-regulated militias” authorized by any state government. They are similar to the Nazi Brown Shirts. They are thugs. Period. They are out to intimidate POC. They want to provoke a situation in which they may shoot them an N-word. And Trump urges them on from the podium in the White House while he maintains plausible deniability. It must really be a misery to be them.

        This Land Is Mine Gary Clark, Jr.
        https://wordpress.com/read/feeds/107435836/posts/2804431164

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        • Cagjr, trust me, I’m no troll. I’ve been commenting on this blog grouping for years off and on. But, we aren’t making progress together in some of these issues so it would seem. Mostly, we’ve always talked about spiritual manners. 🙂

          Bottom line, I think we should all support and maintain the rule of law. I see African-American people as mature, responsible adults who have the ability to refrain from rioting, looting, burning, tearing down monuments, etc., and these militias should stay home and allow law enforcement to do it’s job. Anarchy and hatred breed more of the same. I feel the same way if a white person is shot by the police under questionable circumstances.

          As an aside, if I had a young, hot-headed son headin out for one of these events, I’d be tempted to handcuff him to the bed. Of course, none of them would be doing this in the first place.. I have five sons, step-sons.. One of them is married to an African-American woman.

          Do you know that many people more on the right feel like it’s the people on the left shutting down speech who are like the Brown Shirts?

          Or can you imagine sitting in an outdoor cafe with folks coming bye screaming in your face, smashing your drink attempting to force you through intimidation to put a fist in the air? Good grief.

          Pax.

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        • Cagjr, have you seen this full Kyle Rittenhouse video shot in Kenosha?

          What I think about this in a deeper sense is that we have mostly younger people, looking for identity and purpose.. They think they are standing for something, doing their civic duty from both sides of the aisle, the militias vs. Antifa/BLM, and things can quickly escalate into violence.

          It appears to me that Mr. Rittenhouse did not commit first degree murder, but panicked thinking he was about to be killed which was a distinct possibility. Of course, these kids should not be out there in the first place armed with anything. It’s not their responsibility to stop looting and protect businesses. This is the job of law enforcement.

          I think it’s up to us older heads to work to heal these divisions, rather than to work to gin them up.

          Do you agree? I’m out the door to observe the migratory birds.

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  15. THE END.

    Yes, I’m closing comments because it’s more than apparent this discussion could go on “forever.” I appreciate everyone who offered their POV — even though it may have stirred a bit of a hornet’s nest. Nevertheless, a post that only brings out the head-nodders soon becomes boring and sterile.

    My blog will always be open to dissenters because while I may not always agree with the “other side,” just shouting “You’re WRONG” and walking away is not the best way to approach ideas and opinions. Nevertheless, there comes a point of no return and I feel we’ve reached it on this one.

    Thanks to EVERYONE who contributed. There will be other and more opportunities, I can guarantee you that!

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