60 thoughts on “Careful What You Wear, Ladies!”

  3. I am a guy. I try to be an honest guy, so here goes. Ladies if you wear the stuff that shows your curves, yes I am going to look. I will not ogle, or stare, or lust after you till you get creeped out. I’ll have a look, and move on with my day. I am happily married, I do not stray, I get the things I desire at home often enough. Though I am lusting after a nice Fender Stratocaster lately… I think I deserve it, not sure if the wife does lol.

    I think to a certain degree, those that wear clothing that enhances their sexiness want to be noticed. Nothing wrong with that. It is when people start making this perfectly natural response into something it is not, when things get out of hand. This woman chose to let her religion make her into some kind of lame ass martyr. I suppose some people really have nothing better to do.

    So I will close with this. People, please leave your Fender, Custom Player, sunburst finish, ’69 strat pickups, 12″ radius fretboard, guitars at home. Or at least keep them in their cases. I honestly do not know if I can keep myself under control if I see one in the wild.

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      • Give their little “manhood” a thump.

        I’m open to the possibility that I might be overreacting, but I found this bit unfunny. And I think that if the gender tables were turned, you’d agree.

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        • Ratamacue, I apologize if I offended you. My comment was, in essence, a trigger response disguised in “dark humor”. This attitude about women and how they should dress lest they cause a man to stumble affected me psychologically as a woman for the better part of my life. I become too self-conscience because of their own hang-ups — apologizing for being a woman, and catching the eye of a “godly” man, regardless of how I dressed. I’m certainly not alone.

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          • Victoria,

            I hear where you’re coming from about the trigger response. I didn’t know how much pressure that type of thing could be, so thanks for sharing.

            My reaction to your comment seems to be a new sort of trigger response of my own – new since sometime after my deconversion. I haven’t figured out why yet. I’m not sure if it’s justified.

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          • ratamacue, I really appreciate your comment. Since I moved back to Mississippi this month, I’ve had a flood of religious related memories surface and I’m trying to process all this. Thank you for your understanding. I hope you have a great weekend.

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  9. No, Victoria, you’re not alone.

    I can well remember the rules and restrictions that were placed on the women in the church I attended. Yet, no such demands were required of the men. This is not to say that I don’t understand the biology involved, but if “Christ” were real in the heart of the man, shouldn’t he be able to control himself rather than seeking to put restraints on women?

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  11. “Poor little weak men who can’t admire the form of a woman without wanting to fuck her, then hold her accountable for his poor little weak mind.” – You say that like it’s a bad thing —

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  14. “No, Victoria, you’re not alone.

    I can well remember the rules and restrictions that were placed on the women in the church I attended. Yet, no such demands were required of the men. This is not to say that I don’t understand the biology involved, but if “Christ” were real in the heart of the man, shouldn’t he be able to control himself rather than seeking to put restraints on women?”

    Well said, Nan, and it’s not just the men. Women do it to women, too. Christian women (primarily fundamentalist) fear other women will “tempt their man”. If you are considered attractive, it’s a curse in fundamental circles. Why can’t I look attractive and/or act friendly without being judged that I’m trying to take some woman’s man away from them? Why can’t I be attractive and/or friendly without some guy thinking I’m wanting to have sex with him?

    I could tell you some stories — especially because I was widowed when I was a young woman.

    1 Timothy 5

    “11 As for younger widows, do not put them on such a list. For when their sensual desires overcome their dedication to Christ, they want to marry. 12 Thus they bring judgment on themselves, because they have broken their first pledge. 13 Besides, they get into the habit of being idle and going about from house to house.

    And not only do they become idlers, but also busybodies who talk nonsense, saying things they ought not to. 14 So I counsel younger widows to marry, to have children, to manage their homes and to give the enemy no opportunity for slander. 15 Some have in fact already turned away to follow Satan.”

    In essence, being single in the church scared the bejesus out of married women, and men were conditioned to believe that Satan was using women to cause men to stumble. Just so messed up.

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  15. I’m trying to sort how to enter the “thumping” discussion NeuroVictoria.

    I’m a nurse. I was a nurse. Once a nurse, always a nurse . . . so I’ve heard it said. It took me some time, experience and other nurses teaching me that men in the hospital are going to have erections. After all, we are touching them and the penis is not the only erogenous zone. I am concerned that we not blame male patients for arousal that is well, difficult for them to control at times. As a nurse I never thumped a penis.

    As for how we women dress, it all started in The Garden. In the beginning . . .

    Poor Adam. If Eve had never shared that apple with him he never would have seen her naked.

    @ ratamacue0 . . . I experienced (what I call) a rebound triggering after I left the faith. Triggered by the past spiritual abuse, but also by what seemed to be insensitivity by fellow non-believers towards people of faith. I’d get upset if someone suggested Christians were delusional. Why? Because that meant I was delusional. (Jury is still out on that.) I tend to reserve the right to call myself delusional but still don’t want to call others delusional. It’s difficult to pinpoint but I think the triggering for me came from residual fear. I still deal with it. Living for 48 years with the fear that comes from evangelical Christianity really messes with our wiring.

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    • Zoe, I agree. As I mentioned to ratamacue, it was dark humor. It was insensitive for me to say what I said, even about “weak men”. I also didn’t mean to come across as stigmatizing. I understand the biological aspect of men getting an erection in circumstances like that. It’s only natural, and I would never hold that against them. Seeing what I wrote after I wrote it made me realize that I commented on impulse and because of past hurts (abuse) by these teachings.

      ratamacue and I have exchanged emails so we’ve discussed this further and are on good terms. I explained to him that this very teaching about women being responsible for a man’s thoughts really affected me deeply. I believed it was true at the time. It really is difficult for me to put in words how this teaching affected me psychologically, and it’s taken years to heal. Clearly, the scars still remain.

      From Wikipedia:

      :Augustine’s view of sexual feelings as sinful affected his view of women. For example he considered a man’s erection to be sinful, though involuntary,[139] because it did not take place under his conscious control. His solution was to place controls on women to limit their ability to influence men.

      He believed that the serpent approached Eve because she was less rational and lacked self-control, while Adam’s choice to eat was viewed as an act of kindness so that Eve would not be left alone.”

      I also want to share what I shared with ratamacue in email. It’s hard to find a balance when it comes to talking about the psychological harm done to me and to many other women, not just with this teaching but with the teaching that the husband was to have the rule over the wife because Eve was the first to sin. What I mean is it’s difficult sometimes to be completely open without it possibly offending Christian men, and ex-Christian men who were either indoctrinated to believe this, or to those who didn’t place blame on women for their own thought-life. It’s just that this mentality is more common than not.

      I don’t know if believing men can understand what it’s like to feel that, indirectly, women are the reason for the fall of humankind, and ultimately for Jesus having to suffer and die. Can you wrap your brain around that major guilt trip put upon our gender?

      But in saying this, I also want to say that I know that not all Christian men believe or expect a woman to submit and obey them, or hide her natural shape in clothing. Having lived in Mississippi for the better part of my life (the most religious state) put me in the thick of this mentality about women. There’s a reason why Mississippi is ranked the worst state for women to live in.

      Anyway, to anyone I may have offended, please accept my sincere apologies.

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    • “I’m trying to sort how to enter the ‘thumping’ discussion NeuroVictoria. ” – When in doubt, just thump!

      RE delusions:
      “Insanity is believing your hallucinations are real. Religion is believing that other peoples’ hallucinations are real.”
      — Dan Barker —

      I suspect the same applies to delusions.

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  16. “I’d get upset if someone suggested Christians were delusional. Why? Because that meant I was delusional.”

    I understand where you are coming from, Zoe. The thing is — there’s indoctrination and there’s delusion. Delusions are caused by a neurological disorder. Indoctrination is not, but religious indoctrination can and does promote mental illness, such as depression, as well as brain atrophy (smaller hippocampus), associated with depression.

    While neurogenesis (creating new neurons) is certainly possible, it can take years of rehabilitation to undo the damage caused by negative religious indoctrination. These are discussions we need to have, but to discuss the ill effects of religious indoctrination is still considered taboo, even in professional circles, as stated by psychologist Dr. Marlene Winell.

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  17. NeuroVictoria: You asked – “Can you wrap your brain around that major guilt trip put upon our gender?”

    It’s the reason I walked out of the church one day and told my husband I wasn’t going back. 🙂 I use to write about it profusely online before I actually left the faith completely. I’m with you. I was fortunate I must reveal, that my husband never bought into the submissive wife thing or that women were/are Eve’s. He wasn’t your typical evangelical either, though I tried my best to get him there. That part might be my delusion. 🙂

    My scars remain too. (((hugs))) ❤ I'm often caught off-guard at times when I realize something is still there when I thought it had been laid to rest. 😦

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  18. Its a tragedy that woman are made to feel uncomfortable in the skin of a female, as if God made a mistake by making them different.

    He made no mistake, male and female created He them, not better than one another, but certainly different. Who in their right mind could possibly disagree with nature and common sense?

    Man: woman from man
    Male- female

    Its not hard. The word of God tells it perfectly, and is light years ahead of mans petty grievances.

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    • “The word of God tells it perfectly, and is light years ahead of mans petty grievances.” – Other than the word of men, which your own fan club on your blog warns us we should not consider, there is no evidence that your god said ANY words. Men SAID that their god said things, but according to your own disciples, we should not listen to the words of men.

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  19. The delusional trigger isn’t the same as when I first came out. But initially it was there. Almost a fear of coming out and speaking my truth and that my truth would lead others out of the faith and hence lead them to judgement and possibly hell. Also, the fear that calling Christinas delusional would lead some to kill themselves. Fear of suicide. Big trigger for me as you know.

    I do believe that my indoctrination brought on delusions. No doubt about it.

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  20. Zoe, thank you for the hug. Your comment brought tears to my eyes. Here’s a limited definition to the term “delusion”.

    “A delusion is a belief held with strong conviction despite superior evidence to the contrary.[1] As a pathology, it is distinct from a belief based on false or incomplete information, confabulation, dogma, illusion, or other effects of perception.”

    I definitely agree with you that people of faith are often told they are delusional. It’s important to bring awareness that just because someone believes in a god, that doesn’t mean they are delusional.

    Zoe: “I use to write about it profusely online before I actually left the faith completely.”

    It’s been 10 years since my deconversion — 15 if you count the time I started questioning. But it’s only been, say, in the last year or so that I’ve really opened up about it. For years I denied my own feelings — the deep wounds I didn’t want to acknowledge. They really didn’t start to surface until relatively recently.

    I blamed myself for a long time and was embarrassed to open up about it. I thought to myself, “how could any woman buy into this BS, and think it was healthy?”. That was before I understood the power of indoctrination, and Christianity had been working on me about my “proper place” in the world since I was born.

    I totally relate to what you said with regard to thinking that perhaps its pretty much all behind you now, and then, bam, something comes along like this article and you have a setback. However, I don’t think we should hesitate bringing awareness that this attitude about women is still alive and thriving. The more exposure the better; so I thank Nan for bringing this article to our awareness.

    (((hugs back))) ❤

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  21. ‘Insanity is believing all things came to exist by chance and apart from Intelligence. Atheism is the religion and proof of that insanity.’

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    • “Insanity is believing all things came to exist by chance and apart from Intelligence. Atheism is the religion and proof of that insanity.” – Interesting – I listed the author of my quotation, please list the author of yours.

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          • My friends call me ratamacue, but you may call me ratamacue.

            Does it matter, quotes or no?
            Will it change the meaning?

            If it doesn’t change the meaning, then why use them?

            It looks to me like you’re trying to make your words seem more important or persuasive than they are on their own. Perhaps to suggest (without saying directly) that someone else said them, and/or that it is a well-known or “time-tested” saying. (Those were scare quotes I used there.) Or, even if we figured that you were just making stuff up, it looks like you’re saying, “Hey guys, you should quote me on this!” (Quoted because it’s hypothetical dialog.)

            If that last one was the case, it might be in poor taste, but at least list yourself as the author, so as to be honest about it. (Of course, the religious content still makes it seem like sanctimony…)

            If I’ve misread you, then please, do tell what legitimate, conventional use your quotation marks had.

            http://www.wikihow.com/Use-Quotation-Marks-Correctly
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quotation_mark#English_and_typical_usage

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          • “Does it matter, quotes or no?
            Will it change the meaning?”

            Of course it matters – when we consider the source, we have the right to know what source we’re considering. It may not change the meaning, but it will certainly give the reader some idea of how seriously to consider it.

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    • “Zoe and Victoria, my heart goes out to both of you.”

      Thank you, Nan. I want to share some information to emphasize my point with regard to the images of topless women and social conditioning.

      A study in 2008 demonstrated that sociological factors play a strong role in men’s visual stimulation. In the study, it highlighted the fact that in many cultures, including our own, men are taught from an early age to emphasize physical appearance. The same study also found that men tend to be more aroused by contexts in which they can objectify another person — which tends to be learned.

      Another study using eye-tracking technology demonstrated that contrary to the widely held belief that women are less interested than men in visual sexual stimuli, researchers found that women tended to have the roving glances.

      Heterosexual men and women in the study were shown sexy photographs of a person of the opposite gender while their roaming eyes were monitored. Men, it turned out, kept their eyes coyly on the women’s faces for far longer than the women did. Women’s eyes flickered downwards from the face first, although they both looked at genitals comparably, the researchers say.

      Christianity conditions men to objectify women with emphasis on certain body parts. It wasn’t long ago that women couldn’t even show their ankles lest they caused a man to have “naughty” thoughts.

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  24. Part of the reason for that, Colostrum, is that unlike you, Nan is familiar with the concept of freedom of speech and doesn’t moderate and manipulate the content of what goes on her blog – as evidenced by the fact that she allows you to post here, despite her obvious disdain of you – one, I might quickly add, that the majority of us share.

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  25. Neuro – I have attempted to explain to Colostrum on his saccharine blog, how all of the “Thank you, Colostrum” and “Bless you Colostrum!” that he gets from his drippy, oozy posts (Poor little Milo, crying ’cause his daddy didn’t go to his ball game!), dumps scads of dopamine into his brain(?) and gives him an addictive high – possibly you can explain it better than I.

    No links, please, you’ll only be wasting your time, he will never read them – they’re not in the Bible.

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  26. Just to let you know, CS. I’m deleting comments from you that slam other contributors to this blog. I have too much respect for them to allow you to make derogatory remarks about them.

    As for people taking cheap shots at you? HA! You deserve every one of them.

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  27. Its all good, nan, people can see through the shallowness. After all, Christ was said to have a devil, Paul a madman, so its no big deal that we are called ‘similar’ things.

    Its a compliment actually.

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    • “After all, Christ was said to have a devil, Paul a madman” – both mental issues – it would seem that’s a major prerequisite to becoming religious.

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      • It is true a man is known by the company he keeps. I like the company.

        Careful how you paint the mental picture of -pre-converts. After all, a lot of your friends traveled that road for a while; surely you are not calling them devils or madmen?

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  29. This definition here NeuroVictoria: “A delusion is a belief held with strong conviction despite superior evidence to the contrary.[1] As a pathology, it is distinct from a belief based on false or incomplete information, confabulation, dogma, illusion, or other effects of perception.”

    I think I’ll copy & paste this into my draft area and contemplate my navel now. I wonder if I should start writing some stories about what I use to believe? Might be a way to put this brain back to work. 😉

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