Israel and War

There are many opinions being offered related to the current conflict between the Israelis and Palestinians. Some trace the struggle back to incidents within comparatively “modern” history (link), but to those who are aware of and study biblical history, the dispute goes much further back.

Speaking of biblical history, I just happen to know “Professor Taboo,” who is an expert on the subject! I recently asked him if he would put together some information/background on the current conflict and he graciously agreed.

Before I present his highly competent remarks, he asked me to include this qualifying statement:

First, I must say this vehemently. I do not at all condone any sort of violence, murder, genocide, or war atrocities, by ANY nation, including Israel and their militant terror groups or Hamas, or any other terrorist groups.

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The Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Is “Divine Right & Commission” a legitimate 20th and 21st century claim on land, a region, and cause to exterminate a people who are and have been an a priori resident culture to that of their attackers?

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The whole world’s wide diversity of faith-belief systems bears witness to more than one divine entity and theology. In fact, archaeological and/or paleographical evidence shows that many various religions have come and gone throughout some 150,000—300,000 years of human history. And although many have claimed to be the one and only true faith-system over all others, not everyone can be right — and yet dissimilar in their many ways and practices. The question becomes – how can anyone be right, true, and superior inside so much pluralism?

Israel Divertse LandscapteLet’s suppose that one faith/belief system considers itself infallible and the only true religion with exclusive communication rights to their/the God of the Universe. In the case we’re discussing, it would be Orthodox Judaism first, supported and followed by western Christianity.

But we’ve already run into our first obstacle before we’ve barely started: the factual oxymoron of “pluralistic Monism!” That is, the hundreds to thousands of faith-belief denominations within a Monistic concept of religious doctrine! Self-proclaiming oneself to be the only true religion/faith on Earth is not only irrational and illogical, but totally absurd. It cannot exist — especially in the 20th or 21st century.

And it is this undeniable fact of irrational pure Monism that brings us to the real question about the state of Israel’s 1948 creation (and occupation) inside Palestine.

If “divine right and commission” are Israel’s only claim to be a foreign state inside an already existing culture, where is the independent historical evidence outside of the Hebrew Bible i.e., the Tanakh ( or as it is more commonly known in the U.S, the “Old Testament”)? Before we tackle this subject, let’s remember three examples of past religious/faith-based justifications to invade and occupy a foreign land:

  • Manifest Destiny — the U.S.’s justification for removing and/or exterminating Native American tribes from their lands as federal and state’s expansion moved toward the coastline of the Pacific Ocean.
  • Mein Kampf — Nazi Germany’s justification for removing and exterminating Jews from their homes and businesses in 1930-40’s Germany.
  • Zionist Diaspora ideology — Israel’s justification for removing and exterminating Palestinians from their homes and businesses from the 1940’s to the present Palestine — specifically Gaza and other parts of the former Palestine region and culture. (This invasion, occupation — and continued violence or wars today — were all greatly supported and aided by the U.S., the U.K., and France.)

“…they won’t be able to face [anymore] the war with us, which will include withholding food from Arab cities, preventing education, terminating electrical power and more. They won’t be able to exist, and they will run away from here. But it all depends on the war, and whether we will win the battles with them.” (emphasis mine)
Benjamin Netanyahu, Maariv (newspaper) Feb. 2009,

Israel’s Divine Right and Commission of Occupation?

For modern Israel, and for that matter modern American Christian politics, the primary source or textual justification of being in Palestine “before Arabs” is the Hebrew Bible, with little or no independent corroboration to establish this myth or fragile theory. Nevertheless, what does the Hebrew Bible and Christian Old Testament say about Jews-Hebrews in Palestine? All that is needed are three passages in just three chapters in Exodus (1:1-14; 2:15-17; 3:7-8). This is, of course, unless pro-state-of-Israel backers or supporters (like the U.S. government) want to step outside of the Judeo-Christian bibles all together. But doing so will only make their impossible case and position much, much more precarious and soon lead to their own incrimination.

Sticking with Judeo-Christian biblical traditions, the kingdoms the Jews were commissioned by their God to remove or slaughter, but not coexist with, were Canaan, the Hittite, Amorite, Perizzite, Hivite, and Jebusite kingdoms, all far northeast of modern Egypt and directly north of Midian or the Midianites (see below map). Moses and the Hebrew Israelites, according to Exodus, were originally down in the Middle Kingdom of ancient Egypt around the mouth of the Nile River and the middle and southern portion of the Sinai Peninsula, not modern Gaza or Palestine.

Ancient_Near_East_1100BC.svg

The kingdoms in bold are Canaan, then the Hittite, Amorite, Perizzite, Hivite, and Jebusite kingdoms, all far northeast of modern Egypt and directly north of Midian (or the Midianites.) Moses and the Hebrew Israelites, however, were originally down in the Middle Kingdom of ancient Egypt around the mouth of the Nile River and the middle and southern portion of the Sinai Peninsula.

This is as far as we need to search and ask, “Where is the Hebrew and Christian biblical evidence that Hebrews or Jews were first in Palestine.”

Sticking with only the Jewish or Christian bibles, the three chapters in Exodus clearly indicate that the Hebrew Jews in the 12th and 11th centuries BCE were in middle and southern Egypt first, not Palestine. If there is anywhere in the world that 19th through 21st-century Zionist Israelites might claim they “inhabited first,” it would be inside modern Egypt and Saudi Arabia! Aside from this biblical evidence, it is clear there were already ancient peoples in the eastern and northern Levant and Palestine before a band of Hebrews departed Egypt in approximately 1200 BCE, i.e., the Philistines and other Semitic peoples — the same Arab peoples that Israel’s present top leadership and militant groups want to push out, remove, or exterminate  … AND have done to a large extent since 1948.

In case one wants to argue and debate the minutia of the “biblical evidence” further, then it’s necessary to leave the tunnel-vision of the Hebrew and Christian bibles. As “Bill,” a fellow WordPress blogger, recently and wisely stated: “I admit that there are culture and national issues here, but the genesis is still religion.” Bill is unequivocally spot-on.

Therefore, the question that hangs in the air is … where is the independent, expanded and exhaustive, historical, secular evidence for Israel’s supposed right to be inside Palestine?


To anyone that might be interested in further examination of Israel’s (actual) ancient history, Professor Taboo highly recommends starting with the three sources listed below. Again, this is only a start for a neutral, independent journey into today’s Israeli-Palestinian conflict:

  • Carol Meyers, an archeologist and professor of religion at Duke University
  • Pontus Skoglund, who leads the Ancient Genomics Laboratory at the Francis Crick Institute and Tom Booth, researcher in Ancient Genomics Laboratory at the Francis Crick Institute in London, David Wengrow, professor of Comparative Archaeology at University College London, Susanne Hakenbeck, a Senior Archaeologist at the University of Cambridge, and Rachel Pope, Senior Archaeologist at the University of Liverpool, all in this excellent Smithsonian article.
  • Hashemite white paper says Arabs were first inhabitants of Jerusalem, a June 2020 article in Al-Monitor.

For even further expansion of the atrocities done by Israeli or Palestinian terrorist groups, read and watch these two reports:

https://thesilencing.org/about-the-silencing/

https://archive.org/details/sands_of_sorrow

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NOTE from Professor Taboo:

While this information wasn’t so much what Nan asked me to help her with (she asked me to show biblical evidence), since I am a DE-converted Christian with a heavy academic post-grad background in seminary, and under-grad in history, bible, and philosophy and have spent the last 30+ years studying Late Second Temple Judaism & Messianism, I instead tried to provide information/data/facts related to the situation in Israel that I hoped would  stimulate the thinking of her blog visitors.

118 thoughts on “Israel and War

  1. Didn’t Finkelstein et al establish that there never was a Captivity ,Exodus etc
    And I thought most historians and archaeologists had abandoned the Conquest Model?
    If the Israelites were never in Egypt then where were they?
    Apparently in Palestine all along…
    Doesn’t this mean they are all formerly Canaanites of one shade of another?
    So draw a line through the middle of the damn country and stick the Israelis in one half and the Palestinians in the other and let the UN look after Jerusalem and we can all go home for tea and buns.

    The end.

    Liked by 2 people

    • Now see Arkysatan, that is why I delineated between an examination thru a strictly Biblical lens versus a secular Archaeological-Paleographical lens.

      You are coming at this subject from the latter lens, the correct lens if I’m perfectly honest. But you know full well, as much as I do, we secularists and atheists must examine these ancient Bronze Age myths thru THEIR own lens for the sake of understanding, tolerance, et al, and humanity’s peaceful coexistence… whether one is right or wrong, half-right, half-wrong, or a total imbecile. 😉

      If the Israelites were never in Egypt then where were they?

      In all likelihood, the bands of Hebrews were according to the ancient geographical history of Judaism begins in Mesopotamia, loosely modern-day Iraq and Syria, not Jerusalem or the Levant. And so to your fifth sentence/assertion about all of them loosely being genetically Canaaanites, that’s very plausible. But again, we are outside of biblical traditions and inside the much more reliable, verifiable scientific fields:

      The actual settlement of Jerusalem and its surrounding region was founded between 3000 to 2600 BCE by a Semitic people (possibly Canaanites), the common ancestors of modern Palestinians, Lebanese, Syrians, and Jordanians. However, outside of Old Testament passages, Judaism as a state or kingdom did not exist in or around Jerusalem. To date, there has been no archeological evidence found of a “Kingdom of David” or of Solomon’s Temple claimed in the Bible during this period.
      Dr. Juan Cole, University of Michigan, Professor of Biblical History

      To your last cheeky paragraph, that’s humorous for sure, BUT unrealistic in today’s foreign affairs and more than a century removed from the Sykes-Picot Agreement and the Balfour Declaration… that were the catalyst for this colossal Western Allies’ royal EFF-up and that the U.S. signed off on, and hence made Israel our permanent, explicit bed-partner to this day. 🤦‍♂️

      Liked by 1 person

      • In South Africa during Aoartgeid the B
        Nats created several ‘ independant’ homelands. Ostensibly these were supposed to be self-governing.
        One such was Boputhetswana, a fractured homeland comprising of several territories. Highly impractical as you can imagine, and once SA had a democratically elected government these Independant Bantustans were scrapped and all reabsorbed into SA.
        I cannot see the land situation as it is right now in Israel ever being sustainable.
        With ( falsely attributed ) religious ideology ultimately underpinning the conflict each ‘side’ has to have a clearly defined and equitable territory.
        So, flip a coin. I doubt the result will mean any more deaths than what the present situation has cost.

        Liked by 3 people

        • Great point(s) Ark! I am of similar mind. The U.S., U.K. and France made a hugely monumental mistake in 1916-17 that only thru jet-fuel onto the fire for later generations to deal with. The Arabs post-WW1 and certainly post WW2, got shafted BAD in all the Colonial-Imperial deal-brokering! This fact is undeniable.

          Is there a way out? I say yes!

          Remove 1948 Israel… which at that time was mostly all Diaspora, mainly from hostile (Eastern) Europe. The original Jews/Hebrews already there in Palestine pre-WW2 were happily coexisting with all their Abrahamic kins-people.

          Liked by 1 person

          • Agreed. Remove it and start again. Dividing the country in half gives each ‘side’ similar size territory, ports, access to trade/ sea routes and they can all grudgingly live ever after.

            The billions the US provides in economic and military aid could be put to better use… rebuilding , infrastructure, more MacDonalds and other important stuff.

            Liked by 3 people

          • Absolutely right about the U.S.’s BETTER expenditures in economic/military aid—e.g. Ukraine!!!

            But regarding Zionist Israeli’s presently there, even your ‘half-n-half’ solution would NOT be feasible due to the radical extremism of both party’s Abrahamic religious origins and further exacerbated by the U.S.’s extreme Evangy-Fundy groups and a current President (a Catholic) who backs this disastrous policy of staying in bed with Israel.

            Liked by 2 people

          • 🤣 That would be SO MUCH worse Arkysatan! Look what Yahweh/God/Allah has messed up royally since at least WW1, but more realistically, since the 15th century BCE!!!? 😉

            THAT’S a horrible suggestion if I may say so! 🤭

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    • Yes, all of those assertions have been dispensed with as nothing more than mythology, and mythology is a very porous basis for such claims. This should all have been worked out when the land was offered to the Jews in 1948; borders, government agencies, etc., all should have been mapped out then. Of course, the Anglo-Americans let the chips fall as they may, haphazardly and without rhyme or reason and, viola, this is the sh!t salad we’re left with for over 75 years with no end in site.

      Another great job by the Allied powers….

      Liked by 4 people

  2. I agree with Steve Stills, ‘Nobody’s right if everybody’s wrong.. ‘ So I’m neutral on land ownership. I’m here now. And Israel’s there now, with borders to protect, so there’s that. Maybe someday someone will commandeer my place. On this current tragedy though I agree with Jesus in Luke 13: “Unless you think differently about God you’ll all likewise die.’

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    • And probably the best way to think differently about God where it relates to the current conflict is to not think of him…oops, Him at all because you can bet your arse he isn’t going to think of let alone help either side.

      Liked by 3 people

      • Well, the OT certainly gives God a lot of negative press: ‘The LORD told us to destroy them all.’ And that rap seems to have stuck. To me, man is the more likely destroyer. Then turn and point the finger at God.

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          • And that response demonstrates the multitude of blips in the Christian religion — and why it has NO credibility. I could ask 10 people what they considered the bible meant by [man] being created “in his image” and I would get 10 different answers. If the bible had any validity at all, EVERY person would answer exactly the same.

            And at its core, this is exactly why there is turmoil and violence taking place in Israel at this moment. Everybody believes their position with God is the right one … and they’re willing to fight for it. no matter who gets hurt in the process.

            Liked by 2 people

          • I think you’re over the line on this one Nan. God does NOT want robots. He wants personal relationship and we want to run around and sleep around.

            And the “religious” violence you see in the Middle East is all over the world, in many forms, and for all sorts of reasons. We are selfish, unhappy, suspicious, jealous, fearful, greedy, hateful, you name it. The core reason for war is the war inside us.

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          • Robots have nothing to do with it. I didn’t say anything about individuals acting or talking the same way. I said if the bible had validity, people would not quibble and argue and form “denominations.” They would all “see God” through the same lens and demonstrate this unity to the world. Instead, there are some 45,000 (!) denominations all over the world — each one with its own ideas of what “God” wants.

            And the “reasons” you speak of related to the Middle East violence goes right back to what I just wrote.

            Liked by 3 people

        • Oh, I’m not pointing a finger at your god, Arnold, I have no belief in it.
          Those who cute their god are obviously the ones responsible.
          The other problem is that those on the sidelines so often allow these bastards to get away with this mantra.

          Liked by 1 person

  3. “(W)here is the independent, expanded and exhaustive, historical, secular evidence for Israel’s supposed right to be inside Palestine?”

    Where is the independent, expanded and exhaustive, historical, secular evidence for Palestine to be an independent country from TransJordan or separate from the Ottoman Empire, or separate from the Byzantine, and so on? Or, to look at the same thinking applied elsewhere, Texas’ supposed right to be inside the United States and not Mexico or Spain or France? For Sudetenland to be inside the Czech Republic, for Paraguay to be inside Brazil, for Ukraine to be inside Russia? There is no end to this way of thinking to justify these kinds of historical never-ending, everlasting inconsolable land reclamation grievances. Like the US and its Declaration of being a ‘people’ drawn from 13 disparate colonies, the Jewish people is likewise constructed from the 12 disparate tribes. OF COURSE there is never going to be an independent, expanded, and exhaustive, historical, secular evidence for any created ‘people’ to justify their eternal claim to a geographical place anywhere anytime for anyone. But applying this metric ONLY to Jews in Israel (as if the historical context for doing so after a holocaust is of some secondary of relatively trivial measure) goes by a very different name. And that ‘specialness’ of demanding Jews live up to metrics no one applies to anyone else is rather illuminating (yes, Israel has received more UN condemnations than all other countries combined because, well, you know, they are SO evil in comparison to everyone else).

    But let’s follow the logic: okay, people in Texas. Right then. From the Red to the Grande rivers, Texas MUST be free. Catchy little phrase, donchathink? Now all you colonizers, go away or your presence will justify your murders. The 59 ‘tribes’ of ‘native’ Americans want ‘their’ land back, you see. Oh, okay. Strong argument. Morally just.

    Good luck, prof, resetting the globe’s population today on this kind of ‘justifiable’ metric. I’m pretty sure it will all be very peaceful. After all, aren’t those Texan ‘colonialists’ well know for their pacifism?

    Remember, if Palestinians put down their arms, there would be peace (5 times have negotiated two state solutions been rejected by Palestinians). If Israelis put down theirs, there would be no Jews left alive. Any justification to be found there?

    Liked by 1 person

    • Your sarcasm is unnecessary.

      I ASKED PT to write this because it’s MY outlook that this entire “affair” is based in religion and has little to do with much of anything else. I realize not everyone sees it through the same lens, but since when has expressing an alternate viewpoint become a reason to deride someone else’s outlook?

      Liked by 3 people

      • NOTE TO READERS

        PT responded to tildeb’s above comment, but it was removed. I will not allow this post to be turned into a one-on-one debate. I have no problems with disagreements, but when it gets “personal,” I draw the line.

        BLOG RULES: …anyone who attacks or makes belittling comments related to the beliefs, character, or lifestyle of other visitors will not be tolerated and such comments will be moderated or even deleted.

        Liked by 3 people

    • I tend to agree with Tildeb that PT’s article has some serious problems although for different reasons.

      1) Obviously the fact that many archaeologists consider the Israelites/Hebrew/Jews as arising from local Canaanite culture may disprove the Bible narrative accounts, but it reaffirms the indigenous status of this group.

      To quote Carol Meyers from the article PT linked to: As “The emergence of ancient Israel in the highlands of Palestine is shrouded in clouds and mystery. We’ll really never know the whole story. We can only conjecture how the inhabitants of new settlements in the highlands, in places where there never had been any settlements before, somehow began to identify with each other. And, at least as I see it, they could have met with people who had made the trek across the Sinai Peninsula.

      What was it that brought them together and gave them a new national identity, a new ethnicity? Many scholars, including me, would search in the theological realm.”

      Yet secular scholars are not questioning that there is archaeological evidence that ancient Israel first appeared in the highlands of Palestine! Ark also hits on this point with Finkelstein above.

      2) Use of questionable sources on an article that pays lip service to the importance of valid independent secular sources. I am failing to see how Hashemite white paper sponsored by The Royal Aal al-Bayt Institute for Islamic Thought, which is an Islamic non-governmental institute headquartered in Amman, Jordan represents an independent secular source.

      3) Genetics: While the Smithsonian article you quoted points to the dangers of politicizing DNA. It also points to plenty of studies (in the hundreds) that have found “evidence that Jews and Palestinians are genetically closely related,” and that Jews have a genetic Levantine Middle-Eastern origin.

      Yes, Palestinians do too, which makes the whole conflict even more tragic and a shame. But this too would constitute secular independent evidence for the right to be inside their ancestral homeland.

      Liked by 1 person

      • Thank you ConsoledReader for your POV here. It deserves representation as equally as others. Btw, it is good to see you again as well sir. 🙂

        The very first overarching response I’d give you is that Nan asked me NOT to dive deeply into the Secular archaeological-paleographical evidence of what you address; so I did as she requested. Understandably, going into BOTH the “biblical” traditions AND the secular archaeological-paleographical evidence would’ve have made this post far, far too lengthy, wordy, etc, for Nan’s liking. Sorry, but this lens is there for sure, it was just not explicitly requested.

        Second…

        …archaeological evidence that ancient Israel first appeared in the highlands of Palestine!

        This is at the most conjecture today, and at the least (late) Bronze Age Theory, tending to be presented by only the Diaspora and Zionist Israeli sources, just as much as the The Royal Aal al-Bayt Institute for Islamic Thought as the heavily leaning Israeli-Jewish “questionable sources,” to borrow your terminology. That is why many secular independent sources tend to sit-it-out and to say, “TBD.” But as we both know well, Bronze Age evidence that is desired to be “unequivocally right” with no errors/uncertainties is extremely difficult, if not impossible today, to make it all black-n-white simple.

        And to #3), that is INDEED why the entire pointless conflict is beyond tragic and shameful, for Israelis and Hamas today, ever since 1948 and Israel’s ill-founded creation.

        But this too would constitute secular independent evidence for the right to be inside their ancestral homeland.

        And again, that was not the overall point of this blog-post. 🙂

        Thanks CR for the personal feedback. Great to see you again sir.

        Liked by 2 people

        • While I agree that the study of antiquity will always have problems due to scantier sources to work with and can never be definitively proven, let’s keep in mind my comment was an elaboration on the Carol Meyers quote from a source that YOU provided as an independent secular source in the original post.

          Liked by 1 person

          • Very kind thanks CR for your calm reply. I do appreciate your etiquette, always have Sir. 🙂

            Again, this is only a start for a neutral, independent journey into today’s Israeli-Palestinian conflict:

            That was my closing qualification for encouraging others to do their OWN extensive research into ALL non-biblical sources and available evidence today. Perhaps I should’ve also included the Liability Clause 😉 that, “This list of three introductory doors are not an exhaustive list.” My apologies for my lack of forethought there CR. 🙏

            Also, you may not be aware, but I also had a slight, unspecified deadline to meet, as well as a (very understandable) request from Nan that I NOT get heavy, deep, long-winded, into the independent, archaeological-paleographical, and newest genome research, etc. She knows I have no lack of motivation in going very deep into a subject that I do have a lengthy background in. I will go as far as it all takes me, and I will NOT cut-corners for the sake of time or hasty convenience—which almost always leads to gross oversimplifications and plenty of mistakes! 🙂

            That said, Nan also wisely told me in her usual grace and decorum, that I can certainly take the minutia of this controversy over onto my own blog and all us chest-beating primates can duke-it-out over there to our hearts’ content. 😂

            This Silverback (and hair) gorilla is considering it. 😉

            Liked by 3 people

          • For what it’s worth (Arnold nods and smiles to Bill) your comments are much more clean and readable than your technical research lingo. And thereby you know I’m fairly simple.

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          • 👍 –> for Arnold.

            As the popular quote from Shakespeare’s Hamlet might go here…

            The Lady doth protest too much, methinks… [about my writing,

            But me also thinks she is most often right,
            much to my chagrin.]” 😋

            ‘Once I get started on a roll, I can’t help myself,’ as Abe Lincoln once confessed. 😉

            Liked by 1 person

  4. As usual, most of this goes well over my head, but I commend PT for his historical insight and regard to religious perspectives which are not his own.
    Inevitably these things seem to boil down to a question of ‘rights’, whether historical, religious, or simply perceived as being so. It’s not a huge jump from there to consider what we refer to as ‘basic human rights’, and I think most would consider the right to food, water, power and medicine to be fairly high on that list. The right not to have bombs dropped upon you as you take the kids to kindergarten seems a reasonable expectation as well (or when you are attending a concert, for that matter).

    But human ‘rights’, or ‘rights’ of any kind, are an entirely human construct, designed to assist in the functioning of society and, for the most part, they work reasonably well. Unfortunately they are respected only when it is convenient to do so – when their observation leads to a mutually agreeable outcome.
    So when ‘human rights’ get inconveniently in the way of national or religious agenda, or just plain selfishness, one is forced to call upon ‘God-given’ rights for backup. Not only does the name itself seem to imply a bit more authority, but the fact that such rights are open to interpretation and are issued by countless different Gods makes them ideal to be shaped to fit any situation. An interpretive reading of the texts paves the way to do just about anything, as long as one is pious enough about it.

    As a non-religious, non-scholarly human with very limited brain power I would have thought ‘Thou shall not kill’ to be a fairly straightforward idea, for example. And I’m fairly sure that humans already suspected, in general terms, that it wasn’t a bad suggestion well before Moses dropped that particular bombshell. I don’t think the Christian God was even the first one to come up with it, or the last (though I’m not sure about the Islamic one – he seems to be fairly open-minded about it). It’s possible, I suppose, that the need for brevity when chiselling notes on stone tablets, or subsequent errors in translation, led to the omission of the second part of that commandment, which might have said, ‘unless you can come up with a half-reasonable excuse’.

    What I am leading to (fairly tediously) is that whilst I admire PT’s willingness to respect the religious views of others, I nevertheless believe that as atheists (I assume I’m preaching to the converted here) we have an obligation to call out the concept of ‘God-given rights’ for what they are – utter bullshit. Any ‘rights’ are something that we all need to construct and agree upon, though it’s hard to imagine that happening any time soon.
    Perhaps more focus should be given to the ‘wrongs’.

    Neither side has any ‘right’ to be doing what they are doing and should be universally condemned. Because they are wrong. Either God involved on the coaching staff would be admonishing his team with the words, “Guys, you have totally fucked this up. Can’t you read a simple game plan?”

    There is far more power to be found in unity than in any arsenal of weapons. Why do we struggle so much in harnessing that power?

    Liked by 4 people

    • And I apologise, Nan, if I have accidentally stumbled over any of your own commandments. Any perceived sarcasm on my part is just a reflection of how I express myself. The ‘lowest form of humour’ sits comfortably with me. And I do absolutely respect the right of anyone to express their own opinion, be it religiously based or otherwise ….. but it doesn’t follow that I should respect the opinion itself, any more than I would demand them to respect mine – which I don’t.

      Liked by 3 people

      • Actually, RR, on more than one occasion you have brought a breath of fresh air to conversations that have gotten tense and/or bogged down with “opinions.” So, NO apology needed! I hope you will continue to bring the rest of us back to sanity.

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    • I nevertheless believe that as atheists (I assume I’m preaching to the converted here) we have an obligation to call out the concept of ‘God-given rights’ for what they are – utter bullshit.

      RR, I would fully support this proclamation in spirit, but of course change a little of the “verbage.” 😉

      To your point(s) about textual interpretations of ancient sacred testaments, books, bigger-than-life characters within, etc, Dr. Bart Ehrman and a lesser known Jewish scholar, Dr. Nehemia Gordon have something significant to say on biblical exegesis and/or hermeneutics…

      First, Dr. Ehrman:

      “The text of the Hebrew Bible that is read today and that is at the basis of all modern translations is called the Masoretic Text. […]

      The term “masorete” comes from the Hebrew word masorah, which means “tradition.” […]

      To understand what the Masoretes accomplished, you need to remember that ancient written Hebrew was a language that used only consonants, not vowels. Any language that is written only in consonants is open, obviously, to serious problems of interpretation. Imagine if you were to write English that way. Apart from context, you would have no way of knowing whether the word “npt” was “inept” or “input” or whether “mnr” was “minor,” “manor,” “moaner,” or “manure.”” […]

      “The not so good news is that [precise verbatim] is not the case with all of the books of the Hebrew Bible. […]

      It is possible that the Hebrew texts of all these books were in serious flux before the text came to be standardized by the end of the first century [BCE].”
      Cited over on my blog at: The Failures of Koine Greek & Christianity.

      Now Dr. Gordon speaking on known Hebraisms and Idioms inside Mishnaic Hebrew language, in historical context of a Roman Church Father’s (c. 90-95 CE) quote from Papias of Hierapolis:

      “Matthew collected the oracles [literally: “words”] in the Hebrew language, and each interpreted them as best he could.
      — EUSEBIUS. “ECCLESIASTICAL HISTORY” 3.39.14–17, on Papias of Hierapolis

      I don’t know if anyone realizes the MASSIVE impact of this revelation and its implications from Dr. Gordon, but it certainly demonstrates the linguistic, cultural troubles of transliteration from one language to another, then another, and so on. This is especially so with ancient Hebrew over vast time-periods!

      Therefore RR, what you hit on is precisely part of the major issue in modern Israel-Palestine in using the oxymoron defense of “God-given rights” to one peoples. It’s a position, theological or not, that in the 21st century is untenable, irrational, and illogical. Yet, they still keep killing each other over it. 🤦‍♂️

      Liked by 2 people

      • Thank you PT. Your knowledge and insight continue to be an invaluable source. If school taught me anything (not much really) it was that any piece of written information was open to interpretation, no matter the language. In my case that applied to the school rules in particular. One easily succumbs to the temptation of making such interpretations in support of one’s own position.

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    • Spot on, sir.
      And I see no particular special reason to respect religious rights at all, unless the adherents of these religions in question can produce evidence to show these rights they go on about truly are god given.
      And they can bloody well start by identifying the god in question and show us some evidence of him/ her/ it.
      And if they can’t even do this then they can all go to hell!
      And no, the irony of that is not lost on me

      Liked by 2 people

    • You win the best comment award and most of this is above my paygrade, as well.

      But Hello this is 2023! Not 2,000 years ago. These people (both sides) seem obsessed with religion and territorialism like they’re living in the Dark Ages. Either divvy up the land or assimilate peacefully with each other. They probably have more in common than they care to admit, if they’d just drop the religious fanaticism. And Hamas and other terrorist groups just live to cause pain and sorrow and fear. They delight on destroying anything that smacks of learning to get along and find peace. Cruelty is what they like.

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      • Well …. I don’t know that much about Hamas, but I think, in general, fear is the primary focus. One needs to follow through on threats, unfortunately, to provide substance to the fear.
        We have always been encouraged to be ‘in fear’ of God, or ‘in awe’ …. which is interpreted as more or less the same thing. But what I suspect to be the real message there is to be fascinated and inspired by the apparent unlikelihood of our own existence. And perhaps to be quietly thankful of it. Regrettably such a notion has been harnessed as a weapon of power and greed.
        I continue to argue that the average Israeli or the average Palestinian remains more interested in playing with their kids, watching the football, and having family and friends around for a BBQ than paying homage to God. Most people pay nervous lip service to religion and politics, and fear expressing their suspicions that both are frequently nothing more than a tool of manipulation.

        I used to frequent a restaurant in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia, operated by a couple of lovely guys. Before I got to understand the system I found that, just before I wanted to pay the bill the shutters came down, and all the staff left the building to observe evening prayers, so I had to wait for their return. And then, one night, I got the timing right, and paid the bill before prayers and went for a walk along the waterfront. During my walk – during evening prayers, I ran into these two guys, gazing out over the water, having a cigarette, and quietly chatting – most likely about the football, or their kids, or their demanding partners … but very unlikely about God.

        Liked by 2 people

  5. The history is interesting of course, though I am not sure how much The Bible is a reliable source, if at all. I am keeping away from the issue of the current situation in Israel/Gaza, as there is too much anger and hatred on both sides for me to want to get involved in opinions on my blog.
    Best wishes, Pete.

    Liked by 3 people

    • I appreciate where you’re coming from, Pete. It’s most definitely a “touchy” topic (as evidenced by some of the comments). However, I hoped I could get folks to think beyond the current situation and recognize the core reasons it’s even happening. In fact, this was my charge to the Professor … and while most seem to have issues with what he wrote, he did what I asked of him.

      P.S. I agree with what you said about the bible … but unfortunately, it holds power over (too many) people.

      Liked by 2 people

  6. My sons and I had a talk of this just last night ~ we, are watching history repeat in painful slow motion, and there is nothing, nothing, we can’t even speak out against it, that we can do about it. Witness, like that TV Indian with the tear-drop. When the last of the Indigenous are gone, the Metis` will remember

    Respect … for the professor. Our paths have not been dissimilar, and there is very little in his treste` I would quibble with. Based on the utter lack of archeological evidence, I’ve drawn the conclusion it’s all just a big made-up scam to sucker the rubes that has gotten out of hand. Just not quite sure who made it up.

    Maybe Sitchen is right, the gods of the bible, the giants of yore, those who fell from the sky were extra-terrestrial travelers who for whatever reason: pure science, sheer boredom, desperate survival (or profit) genetically interfered with the development of the proto-humans they found roaming the savannahs of Northern and Western Africa

    Other than this, I’m staying out of it …

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    • That is actually a most introspective and extrospective POV Ten Bears and I commend you for it! Hear hear Sir! 👏

      I think you and I can agree at least on this: 1948 Israel and pre-1948 Semitic Palestinians are a subject far, FAR too broad, deep, and complicated, as well as more convoluted today, that NO modern mainstream news media coverage can equitably report in a mere 30-seconds to 5-mins! Pfffft. 🤦‍♂️

      And there lies one of the biggest wrenches in the machine.

      Liked by 1 person

      • Indeed, and thank you (I think). 1948 has long been the cusp, the lynchpin, the mark, the beginning of the countdown of the ‘one generation’ branch of those eager to see the nation of Israel destroyed, hence hastening their precious lord and master’s return. Now, like the Seventh Day Witnesses a hundred years and more ago, they are changing the tune: where before they were counting the establishment of Israel ~ 1948 ~ as the cusp, now the mark is the establishment within the biblical boundaries before Jesus floats down out of the sky on a floating rainbow unicorn with thousands of ‘helpers’ on floating rainbow unicorns and carries them all away to Paradise*. All that’s holding them back are Gaza and the West Bank. That the Israelites haven’t figured out that these people egging them on really don’t have their best interests at heart is a mystery for the ages.

        There’s a reason my blog is sub-titled A Chronicle of the End Times …

        *Been my experience you call someplace Paradise, kiss it goodbye

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  7. I am worried.

    First, I read my words quoted and praised by my fellow Texan, Professor Taboo. Then, I read Arnold quoting a favorite 60’s song (a theme song for my son and me) while almost claiming geographic neutrality.

    This shitstorm has been raging for my entire long life. We were almost evacuated from Ankara, Turkey in ’67, when the Six-Day (or June) War raged (different peeps, same “anti-them” BS). I am critical of them all; but I kind of understand them, as well.

    I would defend Texas (despite my political stand) from military attack (with one exception). I defended the USA for years as a pawn of the Cold War. While I am no Hawk, best not to ruffle my feathers.

    For those who disagree, I can only quote Achmed, the dead terrorist, “Silence! I kill you.”
    And for more metaphor… (Bill winks at Arnold)

    “…What a field day for the heat//A thousand people in the street//Singing songs and they carrying signs//Mostly say, “Hooray for our side”

    “It’s time we stop//Hey, what’s that sound?//Everybody look, what’s going down?

    “Paranoia strikes deep//Into your life it will creep//It starts when you’re always afraid//Step out of line, the men come and take you away….”

    Thank y’all, PT, Nan, and Arnold.

    Liked by 5 people

  8. READERS/VISTORS

    I urge you to read Gary’s post on this topic, which can be found here.

    He seems to be saying that BOTH sides share the blame … for their own reasons. How many would agree?

    Liked by 5 people

    • I couldn’t get a link for the original on this (from #HarryRamsbottom), but this portion reflects at least some of my point of view.

      “Of course HAMAS is guilty of inflicting violence and death on the Israeli children and families. No matter the miseries that have been inflicted on them – and there have been many terrible ones! – killing babies is inexcusable.

      “But Israel is also guilty. They have inflicted TERRIBLE conditions on the Palestinians for decades. If it has not actually been genocide, then it has certainly been genocidal, or “genocide-adjacent”, if you’re squeamish.

      “It would be easy to blame this on Netanyahu, but like Trump, he is only an extension of a popular vote that has repeatedly placed him in power for over two decades now. The people of Israel – Israeli voters – bear this guilt.

      “Both sides are assholes.

      “There are other assholes as well.

      “Certainly Iran are assholes. They’re feeding this war but avoiding the butcher’s bill. They’re paying treasure, but not blood.”

      “And then there is US. We have allowed – catered to – factions in our society who have demagogued support for Israel for their own political and ideological ends. We have paid TRILLION$$$ to enable Israel to become the monster who created the economic and social pressures that have fueled this.

      “We did that, and that makes us assholes too….”

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      • ““But Israel is also guilty. They have inflicted TERRIBLE conditions on the Palestinians for decades. If it has not actually been genocide, then it has certainly been genocidal, or “genocide-adjacent”, if you’re squeamish.”

        Blatantly not true. An absolute, utter lie.

        “The simple step of a courageous individual is not to take part in the lie.” Aleksandr I. Solzhenitsyn

        Liked by 1 person

          • The best way to ascertain what’s true is to compare and contrast fairly. That is what demonstrates why such claims about Israeli genocide policies are lies. Blatant lies. Amnesty International – like the UN – does not compare and contrast fairly; instead, they only and always condemn Israel.

            So, it’s a very strange kind of ‘genocide’ that elects its target to the Knesset, works cooperatively with them in all kinds of business and administratively, offers free medical services amounting to thousands of Palestinian patients per year and offers surgeries and treatments across the Palestinian civic spectrum including Abbas. It’s a strange kind of ‘adjacent genocide’ to allow self rule in what had been conquered territory and then be blamed for governing failures and government caused shortages yet dedicated to causing random civilian deaths of its neighbour by terrorist tactics.

            The true apartheid state is Palestinian in policy and practice with an unelected terrorist government. You don’t find Israel first recruiting children and then waving away hundreds of children’s deaths from tunneling under Gaza, for example. Where’s the Amnesty International outcry? Right… crickets. Again, compare and contrast FAIRLY. You don’t find street celebrations in Israel every time a Palestinian civilian going about their daily business is murdered by the latest iteration of mass attacks ands bombings. You don’t find Jews being paid per Palestinian killed like is the common practice in Palestine. And none of these shows up in any Amnesty reports. It’s always Israel and always about Israeli ‘atrocities’ when and if they respond to such wanton attacks.

            Sure, the government of Israel can and should be criticized for many reasons and for poor policies that increases the suffering of others. But ask a gay Palestinian if there is any REAL difference. Ask a Palestinian woman whose children are being indoctrinated into hating the Jews if there is any REAL difference. You won’t find what’s true on the ground about Israel with Amnesty International reports exempting Palestine from human rights abuses but you can find out very easily that Hamas – a terrorist organization DEDICATED to killing Jews – rules in Gaza and its record is beyond abysmal of its own domestic treatment of its own civilians and leaves the Israeli government’s equivalent treatment of Arabs, Druze, and Bedouin in Israel in its murderous dust. The two are not comparable but you will not find this out from such one sided antisemitic reporting.

            Liked by 1 person

          • You say The best way to ascertain what’s true is to compare and contrast fairly. Up to this point, you have offered your perspective of the situation between Israel and the Palestinians and provided your “proofs.” I have offered Amnesty’s perspective … so it would seem there are now two ways to “ascertain what’s true.”

            I’m NOT going to go back and forth with you on this, tildeb … nor am I going to allow it between you and the Professor — or anyone else. People very often see things through different lens. This DOES NOT make one of them right and the other wrong. You have stated your position. Period.

            Liked by 2 people

  9. I need to ask a question that may already have been answered.
    Hasn’t the idea of a two state solution already been put on the table and been rejected?

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    • Only 5 times have negotiated deals been rejected by Palestinian authorities. Hence the mantra by Palestinian supporters of “From the river (the east border of Israel’s border with Jordan) to the sea (Mediterranean), Palestine will be free.” It’s a call for genocide – no negotiation now, no negotiation ever – and Western sympathizers including far too many elected officials especially on the left go along with the popular little ditty.

      Liked by 1 person

        • One Algerian “terrorist” arrested by the French was asked by the journalists why does he and his fellow “freedom fighters” resort to such underhanded methods, as suitcase bombs. His reply was, that they were perfectly willing to exchange their home made bombs to the fighter jets, bombers and attack helicopters of their enemy.
          The Jews actually started the cyckle of bombs in British held Palestine against those colonial overlords, then later targeting the Muslims. The first strike being against a mosque, if memory serves me.
          I bet the suicide bombs come from early failures with explosives, that needed to be explained not as failures, but as utter devotion to the cause and as always religion serves as an excuse for the most stupid things humans do, though the Quran says nothing about bombs, or suicide attacks. It is easier though to find candidates for such desperate acts from a population under constant oppression and collective punishment. Is it not?

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          • In the end anything can be used to justify even the most horrific violence, and religion has certainly played it’s part. And continues to do so.
            If religion was not underpinning all the major issues of the Middle East it might not be violence free but it would probably be democratic and have a more peaceful cosmopolitan atmosphere.

            Somehow religion simply MUST eventually be removed from society.
            That is going to take something more than airstrikes, rocket attacks and suicide bombs.

            Liked by 2 people

  10. We really do not need to go to Biblical history for this. Religions are just convenient excuses for theft, abuse, exploitation and violence.

    Evidently the longest lasting plan of herr Hitler was to relocate the Jews of Europe to Palestine. His plans, of course changed, as he could not get permission to move the German Jews there, or to Madagaskar (his second option). But now Zionism has acted out his original plan.

    Both sides in the current conflict , Hamas – just like the ruling parties of Israel are religiously motivated Conservatives, and as is typical for such right-wing parties, they are highly motivated by profit and tribal moralism. No attrocity done to others is in their eyes done to humans with equal value. Sadly, this means the conflict will go on indefenetly, as each act of violence causes more tribal reactions and creates more opportunities to profit, for those who are profiting from this arbitrary division between two groups of humans.

    Of the two sides Israel bears the greater responsibility though, as it is the nation with an actual army, universities and parliament. Because it has the monetary and military support of the USA. As in any situation, moral blame is on the side with the capacity to act. But populist politicians are often bound to the simplistic politics with wich they sold themselves to the voters. Such as fear, hatred and retribution.

    There was a peace treaty between the state of Israel and Palestinians. This changed PLO from a terrorist group fighting for the rights of the Palestinians into FATAH a political party and a police force in the occupied territories. The Israeli prime minister who signed the treaty was murdered by a Jewish right-wing terrorist and after that the Israel decided not to honour the treaty, because they had the power not to, the unswavering support of the USA, because it was a great opportunity to make profit and because the palestinians were seen as less valuable than the Jews. From the frustration of the Palestinians grew Hamas. Both Hamas and their Israeli counterparts are thoroughly corrupt and have taken actions to cling on to power irrespective of democracy.

    What we are wittnessing at the moment is ethnic cleansing. Arab nationals of Israel have been treated as second class citizens for decades, but the Palestinians of the occupied territories are treated inhumanely. They are cheap labour, with hardly any rights. Their land is constantly stolen by squatters and they are subject to most horrendous collective punishment. This constant provocation creates desperate resistance, wich in turn is being used as an excuse for more oppression and racist policy.

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    • At the end of this line of thinking, rautakyy, is the belief that because Israel will always be held in the minds of many to be the final and root cause of all conflict in the area, the unspoken conclusion is that Israel must cease to exist for Palestine to be ‘free’. This is not an uncommon belief – especially amongst many of the political left throughout the West – but one that simply doesn’t grasp that all the people of Israel face a genocidal religious intolerance every day. One that celebrates each death. From the Hamas Declaration for its reason to be: “Allah is its target, the Prophet is its model, the Koran its constitution: Jihad is its path and death for the sake of Allah is the loftiest of its wishes.” So, of course religion plays its part in this multi-generational teachings of Islamic intolerance to all things and people not religiously ‘correct’.

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      • Yes, I know about the aims and goals of Hamas. Why do you think their extreme views are somewhat popular among the Palestinians? Perhaps because collective punishment as used by Israel, is infact the worst possible approach to reduce terrorism? As it has ever been anywhere.

        What could Israel do to survive in this climate of hate it has creaed? Humiliate, torture, kill, segragate, exploit the Palestinians and steal more land, as is their modus operandi at the moment? Perhaps it works. Many a great nation has been built on the graves of previous owners murdered in the process of building a new dream. Could there be a more civilized approach, one that would integrate the Palestinians into a modern state and would that state be a Jewish state? Is infact the idea of a Jewish state just as bad as an idea as an Islamic state, or a Christian state? Does Iran treat the non-Islamic people much worse, than Israel treats non-Jews? If we condemn the actions of Iran, then why not Israel? Because the Palestinians are trying to fight back?

        There was an agreement between the two parties, but it did not fit the plans of right-wing religious Conservatives of either camp. Yet, the responsibility of what happens next lies mostly on the stronger side, proportioned according to the difference in power. Does it not?

        The point of the topic post and mine, as I see them, was infact, that the question of who was there first is moot. Australia is not going to be handed back to the indigenous people. But the Palestinians do have a right to their own property, human rights and to fight against oppression, do they not? Their methods are bad, but so are the ones Israel uses to “protect” it’s citizens. Are they not?

        I do not feel bad, if you choose not to respond my many questions. Just something to think about. I for one feel like I am repeating myself already…

        Liked by 1 person

        • The Palestinian question always invites and welcomes a false equivalency framework. In this post, religious history is being used this way. But as far as the terror attack goes, there is no religious equivalency at work. Palestinians set out to kill as many Jews as possible – religious and secular determination played no part.

          But creating equivalencies is often taught throughout the west – especially in ‘higher’ education – because it seems fair, seems to delve deeper into the why the conflict exists, and it helps to spread responsibility equally between concerned parties (how short was her dress before being raped?).

          But snuck into this framing is what is called Critical Theory, which promotes a group-based hierarchy about power, about privilege (and this where we get into race and class and sex and gender and so on), about who is the victim and who is the victimizer and how ‘culture’ has been created (and systematized) around inherited biases and discriminations. This framework creates a binary view that people can easily glob on to in order to think themselves justified to pronounce which ‘group’ is right/wrong, moral/immoral, good/evil. It’s a guaranteed way to produce what seems to be equivalencies but which are, in fact, false in reality. And this is what we have institutionalized today throughout our civilization. It is ALWAYS a destructive and divisive framework.

          No matter what any other group-based agency does, no matter how deplorable or inhumane some action may be, we will find the raising of the Critical banner and hear many talking heads pronouncing equivalency (it’s complicated, we are to believe), that because we have done this or that, they cannot be condemned. Our truth is not their truth. (Seriously, western feminist organization have not and apparently cannot condemn people of darker skin carrying out institutionalized discrimination and inhumane treatment of other women without being branded bigots and racists for crossing this ‘equivalency’ boundary! I guess the length of the dress does matter.) Furthermore, because of the racist and bigoted and colonial historical inheritance all agencies in the west have received, we can never be in a position to judge them. We don’t have the ‘lived experience’ of them, don’t share their history (for which all bad things we are responsible for, of course, being all powerful and fully enlightened I guess), and so on. Because the Catholic Church did this terrible thing 600 years ago, for example, we are in no position to condemn this terrible thing done by some religious group of them today. Because Jews only lived in this part of Galilee 2000 years ago but not that part of Judea in 1901, they are forever to be condemned as colonizers today. Look at these maps. And so on.

          But here’s the point: there simply is no moral basis -religious or otherwise – to excuse such immoral behaviour as perpetrated by Hamas terrorists. None. No other ‘equivalency’ matters. But there is something fundamentally wrong with our own moral compass when we support/excuse/justify such immorality and then try to rationalize a Critical framing to somehow excuse or justify or mitigate the barbarity in the name of equivalency. Not fully condemning should be a clear signal that we’ve lost the plot, that we are fooling ourselves by relying not on what is true immediately in reality and in the present but warping and distorting what is true immediately and in the present using false equivalencies.

          Liked by 1 person

          • tildeb, you continue to make statements based on YOUR opinion/outlook as though they are valid and supported by untold numbers of experts. Further, along with this process you also continue to ignore/disclaim/dismiss the opinions…ideas…research of others who disagree with you. THIS is why so many of your comments do not see the light of day.

            RARELY do you qualify a statement with “in my opinion,” or “from my research.” To wit: there simply is no moral basis -religious or otherwise – to excuse such immoral behaviour as perpetrated by Hamas terrorists. THAT is what YOU believe based on your personal mindset. Others see it differently, yet you repeatedly condemn them because they don’t see it the same way. AND you assert your POV again and again in a flood of comments … which is why many don’t see the light of day.

            I do NOT want to close comments on this particular blog post because I want others to feel free to express their viewpoints (even if in disagreement with mine or others) without being bombarded with any one person’s militant point of view.

            Please. Honor and respect my wishes.

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          • Is it really only my opinion that well armed individuals planning and then carrying out the machine-gunning of concert goers proudly displayed by these people on video and put online, raping on video, mutilation on video, baby killing on video, hostage taking on video, dragging decapitated soldiers through the streets on video, is only in some circumstances immoral, Nan? Perhaps you could say more about which circumstances you have found where such actions are moral because I’m at a loss to find them.

            When you categorize such moral/immoral actions as merely opinion, then are you not demonstrating exactly what I said, the loss of a moral compass to differentiate?

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          • Yes, it really is your opinion … because you have chosen to validate in YOUR mind something that aligns with your personal point of view. In a previous comment, I referenced a report on Amnesty.org but because it differed from what YOU believe, you immediately discounted the report.

            The situation in Israel is unfortunate for ALL the affected parties. To sit back and pass judgment on who is right and who is wrong is a sad reflection on the humanitarian qualities that we all claim to possess.

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          • I think you are framing critcal theory and Feminism falsely, but that is a nother discussion. History of what has happened explains why what happens now does. Nobody here said it excuses the atrocities committed by Hamas. In that regard it seems you are fighting fantoms of your own. That said, it appears you are totally ignoring the way Israel, the power that be, in the occupied territories, treats Palestinians. If Palestinians learn to hate Israel, you can not frame it just in the context of evil Islamists teaching it to them, even though that happens. Can you? No more than you can claim evil Orthodox and Zionist Jews teaching their kids to hate all arabs alone explains the violence done to Palestinians, even though that happens. Right?

            You blame others for dividing groups of people into good/evil, but seem to be able only to recognize the evil done by the underdog in this fight. Perhaps that is merely for some emphasis sake?

            The Facts are, that Hamas is a radical Conservative right-wing terrorist organization with Fascistic values. That Israel is a racistic country oppressing the Palestinians and continuously grabbing their land by some ridiculous divine “right”, thus providing the base for Hamas to grow and exist.

            Israel could choose otherwise, but wont. Reasons I suspect are greed, racistic attitudes, fear as used by the powerhungry populist politicians, escalation of the cyckle of retaliation, general human stupidity and the sheer fact, that they are in the power position to do as they please.

            We are in agreement, that no old maps give the specific right for anyone to live somewhere, but not the other place, but the point of the good professor, as I see it, is precisely that. The state of Israel is based on such bogus. They eagerly claim land based on ancient maps, even when the maps do not support their claims. The land on wich they establish their COLONIES is already owned by the Palestinians, who are simply driven off their land, because it magically belongs to the Jews. Does it, in your opinion? It is not unique in history and the previous examples do not provide us with a very promising outcome.

            Perhaps I have missread you and you are as willing to condemn the crimes and violence done by Israel, as I am to condemn the crimes and violence done by Hamas? Are you?

            From my perspective, formed by news articles, studies, reports and friends having served in the UN peacekeeping core in the area, Israel is powerfull enough to end the confict by honouring their agreements and treating the Palestinians with human dignity, but they choose not to. It seems, because they are handicapped by right-wing “virtues” of patriotism (tribalism), profit (greed) and religion (moralism). Hamas has the same values, but is not in equal power position.

            Liked by 2 people

    • An excellent and refreshing perspective Rautakyy. Thank you for this! 🙏 You and I see eye-to-eye completely on this shameful debacle created by Zionists and Accessorized and Accomplice(d) by the U.S., U.K., and France primarily then the other 1946-48 U.N. nations of the General Assembly.

      Bravo Sir!

      Liked by 2 people

    • And Nan, Rautakyy, if I may include this 1946–present map (from MSNBC news), I think it more than adequatly shows & supports Rautakyy’s conclusion of “Of the two sides Israel bears the greater responsibility though…

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      • You think Israel fighting off 4 wars of invasion might have had something to do with these changes? Or perhaps this is some kind of inverted but very sly Jewish scheme to ‘colonize’ vitally important defensive positions conquered and then given back only to have to be conquered again in the next war of extinction. And again.

        Giving back conquered land, it seems obvious in Israel’s case, does not produce a fair exchange for peace; rather, it seems to regularly produce an invitation for neighbours to go to war yet again. I wonder the lesson might be?

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  11. Hello Nan, This is a quote from a former IDF (Israel Defense Forces) soldier who was a border observer and worked with the highest level technology available. She says “If a bird came close, we knew. Even a cockroach came to our fence border, we knew. How did 400 Hamas pass through today?”

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      • I know there was a significant cyber attack prior and shortages of staff IT shortages due to the holiday to address it. I also know this cyber attack has been discussed as evidence for 3rd party interference because of the specificity of the failures – players such as Russia and China who are known to have this capability. But until a complete review is done, we really don’t know much about this colossal security failure. I also have no doubt much had to go wrong for it to unfold this way. I sincerely doubt Netanyahu can survive the fallout.

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        • The likely victim for the fallout is Shinn Bett director Ronen Bar, for uttering out loud, that the Jewish terrorism “fans the flames” of Palestinian terrorism. Factual view, that outraged the right-wingers in the Knesset. The way this has been set up, is that it was a failure of Israeli intelligence community to predict the attack, while in real life it is a demonstration of how no security fence, or wall is fool proof and reliance on them is unimaginative and dangerous, not to mention futile waste of resources (unless the goal is to turn them into tourist attractions in the distant future). This one had electric surveilance all over it, but such surveilance has it’s limitations and ultimately only helps, if there is actual manpower near enough to respond to the aquired info. There were automated machineguns, but those were systematically taken out by drones. (They may be good at killing children throwing stones, but for stopping any planned attack by a motivated and determined force, they are just a waste of money.)

          I am reminded how easily the Egyptians punctured the massive sand wall built by Israel on the east bank of the Zuez canal. Yet, by a daring raid and a foolhardy gamble Israel survived that war by the skin of their teeth, as they managed against all odds to destroy the Egyptian air force on the field. Had that mad gamble failed, there might not be Israel.

          Liked by 1 person

  12. Having followed this thread …and several others on this war … I have yet to read a post making a single positive suggestion to finally bring about long term peace and stability.
    Anyone want to make one?

    Liked by 1 person

    • I agree. It would be nice. However, it seems that in today’s world, dissension and disagreement and WAR is far more dominant that trying to come to terms with the “other side” and find an equitable solution(s).

      But hey! If you can come up with something …

      Liked by 1 person

      • My knowledge of the historical and political background is limited so any suggestion I might have would be straightforward.
        As I mentioned before …
        Divide it in half and flip a coin.

        Liked by 2 people

        • Sounds good to me. Unfortunately, humans are never content and the next thing you know, someone would want/take what the other guy has and, well, I think you know what comes next. It’s human nature.

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          • If the naughty children refuse to play nicely then sometimes they just have to be separated by the grown ups and sent to their room to cool off.

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    • Hello Ark, You don’t understand. Those on top, they don’t want peace. They benefit nothing from peace, but much from war. Here is a post today from Australian political commentator Jamie McIntyre. (And keep in mind, 6 Jewish corporations own 96% of the media. You think we’re getting both sides of the story?)

      “Perhaps I have not made myself clear, so please allow me to elaborate…

      I am not taking sides with regards to Israel and Palestine because there are no sides to take amongst us, there is only one side and it’s the same side all over the world in every conflict: it’s ‘we the people’ against the evil cabal that controls and funds both sides of every conflict.

      I am and will always be, with ‘we the people’ of all nations, races and religions and I refuse to be dragged into the division they continue to create.

      I believe both Palestinian and Israeli civilians are victims of a horrific situation engineered by this evil, global cabal, for their own purposes of total control and domination of the planet.

      It’s becoming clear that they want war with Iran in order to potentially drag Russia and China into what would rapidly escalate to WWIII.

      The current war in the Middle East is just another chess move for them, we musn’t lose sight of their ultimate goal of establishing a One World Government. In order to do this they must destroy the status quo and a world war is the perfect way to achive this.

      Whether its a pandemic, the climate emergency, the immigration crisis, the war in Ukraine or now Israel, these are all moves towards to the same objective.

      Pay attention to how with each event they try to divide us; vaxxed vs unvaxxed, climate alarmist vs climate denier, pro-Ukraine vs pro-Russia, pro-Palestine vs pro-Israel. Always the same psyop tactics of outrage, fear and hate.
      We must make sure not to fall for their strategies of division, because when we do, they win.

      The Israeli government is under the control of this global cabal and so is Hamas. The most important thing to bear in mind, is that the hand pulling the strings on both sides is the same! So there is only one side for us to be on, the side of the Israeli and Palestinian civilians, the side of ‘we the people’.

      I try to inform of the human tragedy that is unfolding, I have seen horrors on both sides, but in Gaza it’s still ongoing and the situation is getting extremely desperate. Hamas doesn’t care for the safety of their own civilians, just like the Israeli government doesn’t care for the safety of its own civilians, it’s become very clear that they allowed the horrific attack to take place.

      It goes to show that both sides wanted this war because there are no two sides! There is one – the cabal that controls both.

      Until everyone understands this, we will continue to perpetuate the hate and division that they seek for their dystopian future to come into shape.

      I understand the historical complexities of the region and I sympathise with two populations that have endured trauma and abuse like no other on this planet. I get that the hurt and the hatred from decades of conflict runs deep, but if we want to transcend the trappings of a matrix designed to keep us in conflict and enslavement, we’re going to have to learn to heal ourselves from the past and focus our anger in the right direction; not against one another, but against those that purposefully and methodically create the perfect situations for the perpetuation of hate and bloodshed.

      We MUST STOP killing one another.

      It is our duty, if we are to consider ourselves awakened individuals, to make sure we counteract the narrative of hate and division and remind ourselves and everyone, of who the real enemy is.

      My prayers are and will always be, with ‘we the people’ of Palestine and Israel. May God help them at this time of devastation.
      🙏🏻❤️🙏🏻
      #israel #palestine

      Australian National Review
      http://Andrews.com
      6:16 AM · Oct 17, 2023
      from Kuta, Indonesia·

      Liked by 2 people

  13. The Global Cabal or New World Order is a conspiracy theory according to Wikipedia. But it’s easy to question the validity and possibility of it.

    “Before the early 1990s, New World Order conspiracism was limited to two American countercultures, primarily the militantly anti-government right, and secondarily the part of fundamentalist Christianity concerned with the eschatological end-time emergence of the Antichrist.

    Academics who study conspiracy theories and religious extremism, such as Michael Barkun and Chip Berlet, observed that right-wing populist conspiracy theories about a New World Order not only had been embraced by many seekers of stigmatized knowledge but also had seeped into popular culture, thereby fueling a surge of interest and participation in survivalism and paramilitarism as many people actively prepare for apocalyptic and millenarian scenarios. These political scientists warn that mass hysteria over New World Order conspiracy theories could eventually have devastating effects on American political life, ranging from escalating lone-wolf terrorism to the rise to power of authoritarian ultranationalist demagogues.”

    Liked by 2 people

    • Scandal is so often much more entertaining as it tends to appeal to our more… let’s just say … baser intelligence?
      Facts have a habit of requiring people to face up to certain aspects of reality they are not always willing to confront/ deal with.
      Like Prof and Nan not wanting to accept Liverpool being such a brilliant team.
      😉

      Liked by 1 person

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