A Probing Question

Nan Christianity,

At the suggestion of one my regular visitors (a Christian), I’m posting the following question for discussion.

Since most of the folks who frequent my blog are NOT Christians, I’m requesting that everyone remain civil and refrain from being antagonistic and/or snarky in your comments. Also, please do not belabor any particular points. Acknowledge and accept that there are many who are still in the clutches of religious belief and it’s going to take strong counter-evidence to help them see things clearly.

Believers are also welcome to share your thoughts.

Why did Jesus need to die and rise again?

181 thoughts on “A Probing Question”

  1. (speaking slowly and hopefully in a non-snarky way)
    He didn’t need to die but it made the story so much better…if you accept that the Bible at the NT stage is no longer an account of the history of the Jews, but more of a sketchy account of the history of a man named Jesus, then like any good story it needs a climactic event, and then the denouement when the tomb is found to be empty and Mary is conveniently swooped up, whole cloth, to heaven. It’s a great way to continue the mystery, and eliminate the principal players conveniently from the narration.

    If he hadn’t died in such a spectacular fashion, there would have been no Christian faith, now, would there.

    When you accept that all faiths of all kind are only faiths because we believe in supernatural events, people, and myths, the entire structure begins to wobble a bit, doesn’t it.

    Liked by 6 people

    Reply

      • The primitive brain is still with us. We believe in all kinds of falsehoods. Alien abductions, alternative medicine and practices, power of crystals, moon landing was fake, Bigfoot, that we live in a simulation, that some people can talk to animals and the dead, that 9-11 was an inside job, that Putin is a nice guy, trump was the best president, voodoo, crazy conspiracy theories..the list is endless. So religion is no surprise to me that it occurred and there have been thousands of them and each believer think theirs is the correct one.

        Liked by 7 people

        Reply

        • HEY NOW Mary! Watch it young Lady! 🤨 Don’t you go “falsehooding” my Sasquatchianity woman! It is JUST as real and truthful as Iesos Christos and Christianity™ !!!

          P.S. Apologies beforehand Nan if I have crossed the fine line between truthfully satirical and snarky-antagonistic. 😊

          Liked by 3 people

          Reply

        • It may just be that a belief in a higher power is necessary to explain the mysterious, the unexplainable, the terrifying things that occur without our control, approval, or even understanding.
          All those points of light in the night sky. We had imagination, even then, and were pattern finders. Oh, look, if you connect the points just right, you get a kind of warrior…and over there, it looks like something else.
          Comets were angry gods, sunrise was a miracle and a puzzle, every day. So we discovered chariots and gods to control them. Without a way to explain these amazing things to ourselves, we might well have gone mad.

          And now that science is finding out the cause of this and the real meaning of that, we are gradually slipping away from angry gods and demented chariot riders. (although it might have been fun to see the chariots…)

          Liked by 2 people

          Reply

          • One can understand the need for primitive humans to “explain” strange happenings, but good grief! MANY years have passed and MUCH understanding has taken place … yet there are still folks who believe in a god who “made” humans and who controls and/or directs their lives. One wonders if humans will ever get past the cave people’s perspective on life … ??!!?

            Like

        • Judy and Nan,

          It would make sense that people would give up religion as we developed more understanding and scientific knowledge if the only purpose religion had was to explain natural phenomena, but that’s not all it does.

          For most people science and their religion are not mutually exclusive beliefs or ideas. So it’s not shocking that they don’t give it up. It serves other purposes and other roles in their life.

          Liked by 2 people

          Reply

        • And still president according to my Canadian mom.

          The primitive brain. One wonders, what’s in that part of our brain. Original fear of all that is not understood. Trauma. Re-wired neurons after our first ancestors watched their newborn devoured by a lion and so on and so forth.

          Maybe there is an evolutionary reason for mystery, for fantasy, for escape from reality. It is odd though that as a species we’re somehow comforted by barbarism. Crucifixion. It’s like humanity is stuck in a toxic cycle of searching for relief from an ultimate abuser (God, or in a secular way, just life.)

          Liked by 2 people

          Reply

        • I think fear of a definite but unspoken kind is part of the answer. We fear what we don’t know, what we can’t touch or understand or manipulate. So we make gods who do that for us. They are, after all, Up There and can see stuff and control what we can’t.
          It’s probably why people leave offerings (according to their religion and leanings)

          In the Catholic church it was so many Rosaries a day, or one every night, and lighting candles when you visit a church. In another religion it might be singing at prayer meetings, or tending the minister and his family. Candles play a large part in nearly every religion. Gods like candles.

          And when you think about it, those offerings are to keep the gods happy so they help us.

          Liked by 1 person

          Reply

    • Again, trying to be non-snarky: what’s the big deal about the crucifixion? If Jesus died, that was a sacrifice, and if he rose again, that was a miracle. But you can’t have both–if there was a resurrection, then he wasn’t dead, just out of action for a day and a half.

      Liked by 1 person

      Reply

  2. We don’t know for fact that such a man even lived. We dont know if he was actually dead and his friends just helped him to safety somewhere. Maybe he died later and at the time, he was just another woke radical, so how much attention was even paid to his missing.
    But how many years later (100/200), a story was spun and alas a religion formed that promised an end to fear of death and an eternal life (good way to control the masses),but with no way to prove any of it. We’d have to go way back in time to see.
    I think it becomes an addiction and therefore the belief, resists logic and inquiry.

    Liked by 6 people

    Reply

        • To whom did God dictate the bible? Obviously if you dictate something you dictate it after the fact, not as it’s happening. And which parts, since it’s nicely broken down into specific chapters, as a history of the Jews, one section at a time.

          Liked by 1 person

          Reply

          • God didn’t dictate the bible, he inspired its writers, much like he inspires me to comment. It’s written by folks who believed God responsible for creation etc. And it was copied and edited over and over. So I read it with a grain of salt.

            Like

          • God didn’t dictate the bible, he inspired its writers, much like he inspires me to [proselytize].

            And by that logic, then He also “inspired” the many other writers whose testaments or NOT in the/your Bible, known as non-Canonical scriptures/testaments. 🙂

            Liked by 2 people

          • PT, IMO, Arnold is not proselytizing. He hasn’t “encouraged” anyone to join him in his fantasies. He’s just answered questions related to his faith. Of course I’m sure he HOPES something he says will have an effect, but if he were actually trying to convert readers, I would shut him down. Fast.

            Liked by 2 people

          • Yes Nan, I mostly agree with that, but it is certainly implied in his frequent sharing of his faith. And despite that Arnold typically avoids challenges about the veracity of his faith’s foundation(s), i.e. taught to him by Scripture and someone else earlier in his life, who was also taught the same way, and so on and so on… sourced primarily from Holy Scriptures, but some other “revelations” as well as I’ve alluded to with the God Helmet (paranormally, supernaturally, “ambiguously naturally”), no Christian today can avoid/ignore their commission by God to evangelize, share, proselytize, or in this case here ask you to do this post for him. 😉 What are those New Testament bible passages commissioning Arnold to go out and do and the reasons to do it?

            John 14:6; John 6:33; John 3:16-17; Ephesians 1:17-18; Matthew 9:37-38; Matthew 28:19-20; Mark 16:15; Luke 24:45-47; Romans 1:16; Romans 10:14-15; 2 Corinthians 5:20; 2 Timothy 4:5; 1 Peter 3:15-16; and these are not exhaustive. “God’s” clear cut desire for Arnold (among a host of many other things/behavior) is to “share” in subtle ways and/or explicit ways. Period.

            That said, I must give Arnold some kudos, some nods of approval. He is doing more than most all general/common Christians, barring Billy Graham, now his son, Reverend Martin Luther King, Jr., Bishop T.D. Jakes, Joel Osteen, and Dr. James Dobson just to name a few popular evangelists.

            So Arnold deserves some praise for those efforts. 🙂

            Liked by 1 person

          • Of course it’s “implied”!! He’s a believer, after all, and that’s their Great Commission. Nevertheless, for the most part, I don’t feel Arnold has been militant about his faith.

            Liked by 1 person

          • Couldn’t agree more with you there! In fact, Arnold is much, much more pleasant, decent, civil, and respectful to us non-believers than most all evangelists, certainly the militant ones we’ve dealt with here in the past. Arnold isn’t one of them. 🙂

            Liked by 2 people

  4. My answer is probably similar to Judy’s. I think that the part of the story where a minor Judaean cult leader was executed by the Romans for sedition might be true. The Romans probably executed at least one of those a week. But then a bunch of Greeks trying to start a new mystery religion based around this figure are left with a problem. Two problems. Their demigod was a nobody from a backwater instead of a high-born hero, and he didn’t go out in a blaze of glory. Any demigod worth following would have those two elements in his story. So they needed to invent them. They invented a miraculous birth story (or two) full of royalty and portents, and then had their hero rise from the dead and conveniently float up to heaven like Hercules to explain away his absence thereafter. Since none of the original people involved were writing about their actual experiences, the church founders wrote these stories down and later generations accepted them without question.

    Liked by 6 people

    Reply

  5. In a way it’s easy to believe in the unseen, the unknown, because the door is wide open for just that belief. No one can say it ain’t so, because you can always just call them non-believers and walk away.
    What we can’t see, touch, or taste, becomes a belief in something, be it ghosts or pixies or gods.
    To a simpler society the gods were vital. They controlled the weather, the heavens, the planets, and protected us from ghosts and demons. When you pray for rain and it rains, well, thank the rain god for hearing your prayers. When you pray to the gods to take the snow away, and it disappears, be sure to thank them for that.
    We still teach our small kids about Santa Claus, and the Easter Bunny. In the British Isles there are pixies and sprites and old ladies leave milk and bread out for them.

    If I recall my history correctly, the Romans had a lot to do with Christianity taking over; the original Lares and Penates were slowly changed into Saints, and each was designated to have a special purpose. St. Anthony, St. Mary, St. John, all of them . One for travelers, one for lost souls, etc. etc. The Roman people were alowed to keep their gods, just the names were changed.
    And Rome, after all, is the seat of the Catholic Church, isn’t it. It’s why the Mass was said in Latin for nearly 2ooo years, and its where the Popes hang their er, hats.

    Liked by 2 people

    Reply

    • Is THAT all you have to say, Arnold, after I fulfilled your request??? C’mon! That’s really a wimpy response. As a believer, you should have a WHOLE BUNCH of reasons to offer!

      Liked by 3 people

      Reply

    • @Arnold.
      If the bottom one was to put God’s ( his ) spirit in us why didn’t he simply die of old age?
      Imagine all he could have achieved if he’d lived til he was 80?
      He could still have resurrected and wafted off to Heaven,could he not?

      So why the brutal ( execution) human sacrifice?
      What was the purpose of him subjecting himself to this barbarism?

      Liked by 3 people

      Reply

      • I really don’t understand why the cross except that it was very visual, public, final; ‘It’s finished.’ In some way Jesus’ death removed the Sin barrier (independence) between us and God. To me that’s huge because after all, we mostly want nothing to do with him.

        Like

        Reply

          • Okay okay, in God’s way, which at this point I don’t understand. I’m working and waiting on it though. Yet, not furiously because I’m already on that bottom line.

            Like

        • so an omni deity was unable to remove the sin without gruesome torture? why was that the case?

          since everything is according to his ineffable will anyway, isn’t sin His fault ultimately? I repeat my first question.

          Liked by 1 person

          Reply

        • @Arnold
          Well, I am not sorry to say, that answer is a load of bollocks, as well you know, illustrating your indoctrination as much as your ditching of critical thinking and more pointedly, your abdication of personal responsibility.
          The character Jesus of Nazareth was Jewish.
          His execution – human sacrifice – as the sacrificial lamb ( sic) – was the human version of the scapegoat.
          This illustrates all the more how much this entire tale is nothing but a barbaric piece of fiction.

          Perhaps it’s time you manned-up, strapped on a pair and kicked this bullshit religion into touch once and for all?

          You deserve a decent life and spending it shackled to this invented garbage is a waste, not only for you but your family and friends.

          I would highly recommend you take the time to visit the Clergyproject.com and also watch a few videos from people such as Matt Dillahunty and Dan Barker.

          Liked by 2 people

          Reply

          • So, are you going to read the thoughts of ex professionals over at the Clergyproject.com?

            After all, you stated you wish to learn, did you not?
            And Dan Barker’s testimony is definitely worth listening to.
            Somewhat of an eye-opener, of that you can be assured
            Just Google him.

            Like

          • You could ask if she would be amenable to such dialogue once you have read the deconversion testimonials.
            I am sure plenty of those here who deconverted would be able to relate to those who deconverted over at clergy project.com
            Or, you could simply write a post on your blog.

            Liked by 1 person

          • @ Ark (and thanks Nan- this is a sort of wrap-up testimonial for your post, although my story isn’t finished quite yet)

            I listened to Dan Barker’s 40-minute “nutshell story” and some Clergy Project testimonials. And I understand the disillusionment with a vacuum belief, an empty belief. I’ve been there often. So It struck me that I consistently measure my day-to-day happenings with my belief. That ‘Jesus Christ come in the flesh’ is in MY flesh and blood as I walk about.

            No, I don’t have special revelations or exotic experiences or a prayer life. 3 years ago I stepped away from a fundamental church and have avoided the loudspeaker church. What I’ve done is “listen” to my circumstances and respond to the openings that agree with Jesus Christ’s life and death and resurrection. I look for people I may help, even heal.

            I sometimes resist or gripe about stuff yet I’m comfortable and happy being me. I’m comfortable not knowing whether I’m right or wrong, comfortable when I’m confused, lonely, whatever. So was Jesus. So were the Psalmists. I’m comfortable that talking with myself is talking with God, because he lives here too.

            Liked by 1 person

          • For the love of the gods I have no burf in, stay away from people and seriously, do not try to heal them!
            Be satisfied that the character Jesus is working his mojo on you but please, leave others to their own devices. And ESPECIALLY stay away from children.

            Liked by 1 person

          • I’m not sure what Arnold means by “heal” but I’d like to add to the conversation that it’s typical in the evangelical realm to respond by saying: It is not me who heals but the Lord.

            And rarely will they stop going into the world and preach the gospel because it is a “N.T.” commandment. They don’t even have to mention the Bible. They reach people with kindness, attention and compassion. This can lead people to say: What is it about you that you have such peace. Voila, door opens and one can respond: Jesus. The hope from here is “healing.” And what does it mean to be “healed?” Saved.

            Preaching to the choir here but for the sake of someone lurking.

            Liked by 3 people

          • Hi Zoe!
            Arnold’s offer of healing is like spreading a virulant strain of theological STD.
            Just revolting supernatural crap.
            And when this is forced upon kids, it is nothing short of child abuse.

            Liked by 1 person

          • No need to apologise.
            I am sorry you were subjected to the rubbish of Christianity to the extent you have ditched critical thinking.
            From one perspective it is quite sad.
            I could hope you will get over it, but more importantly you never, ever poison a single young mind with it.

            Liked by 1 person

          • No they don’t “belong”!
            However, as parents, we should be responsible for their well-being.
            Religious indoctrination does not fall within these parameters.
            Ask any religious person who has deconverted.

            Like

          • I have never asserted there is no god.
            I always assert that to date no evidence has been presented to demonstrate the veracity of the claim that gods exist.
            If you consider you have evidence for your god then feel free to present it.
            Also, uf you are going to claim that your god is real then at least have the decency to refer to him by name.Yahweh.

            Liked by 1 person

          • Lol, I’m lurking.

            By “heal” I mean affect someone in a positive and ongoing manner, for example regular visits to people in need of company. So I wonder that Jesus’s “miracles” weren’t obviously immediate, rather, effected change in the person’s intent and attitude.

            Like

    • As a Christian, is theology not important to you? It’s a bit like riding a bike, you get a puncture, and then you’re like” “hey man, this puncture doesn’t matter, what matters is that I can ride my bike!” all while ignoring the puncture…

      Liked by 1 person

      Reply

        • Hi Arnold.

          Have you ever heard of the “God Helmet”? It was invented by Stanley Koren and researched further by neuroscientist Michael Persinger between roughly the 1980’s thru 1999. I’ve given a brief 😉 answer to Nan about her question on why a Jewish Rabbi had to die and supposedly rise again from the perspective of a Secular-Independent non-Christian. Because you have stated many times in your numerous comments that you ARE NOT a Fundamentalist with regard to the Holy Scriptures or history surrounding it, but more a Non-Conformist leaning heavily upon your own personal experience(s) with the Abrahamic God. This posture is incredibly intriguing, and I’ll briefly 😉 tell you why.

          Ask any Christian how they perceive God and how their God actually communicates to/with them, and their answer(s) will always fall in one of two categories or a mixture of both, but never outside of these two (unless they are considered heretics):

          A) General Revelation — This is indirect, and available to everyone. Some truths about God can be revealed through reason, conscience, the natural world, or moral sense. “Grand Design” in the Natural world is often used for this category of Believers.

          B) Special Revelation — This is direct revelation to an individual or a group. This sort of revelation includes dreams, visions, experience and prophecy like manifestations of “tongues.” It also includes holy scriptures like the Old and New Testaments or the Bible.

          Therefore Arnold, based on your many [proselytizing] comments here and some other blogs, it’s safe to say you fall more into category “B)” above than “A)” or not A) at all. Because you are adverse to Holy Scriptures, history, and a Non-Conformist to mainstream Christianity™ this is why I bring up Koren’s and Persinger’s helmet.

          The God helmet was used on hundreds and hundreds of volunteers over decades of study on human creativity/imagination, religious experience, and the subtle effects by low pulses of electromagnetic stimulations upon the brain’s temporal lobes. The findings are quite revealing, even astonishing… or rather as you’ve put it here:

          I’m not a fan of the term supernatural. I think of everything as natural, some without explanation. God, miracles, whatever- natural on a different level.

          Or in other words, perhaps ambiguously natural?

          Ahh, “ambiguously natural” sums up the many fields and history of human science! Much explained and proven factual; still more and room to grow, correct, and recorrect over whatever necessary time-period required. Is that a fair interpretation of YOUR belief/faith Arnold? Mostly subjectively personal with hints of ambiguously natural?

          Here’s a quick 4-min video on the subject of the God Helmet, out-of-body experiences, and near-death experiences:

          If you will take some time to research this subject Arnold, I believe you will obtain (a lot?) more answers to your “ambiguously natural” world we ALL belong in/to and naturally share the same biology, neurology, genetics, and all their similarities… to various degrees.

          Best regards Arnold 🙂

          Like

          Reply

          • Yeah Prof, I’m up in the air on a lot of stuff, and on the ground with Jesus. Seems natural to be born of his Spirit. My aversion to the term “supernatural” is probably based upon his aversion to do signs for the Jews. And his insistence that ‘the kingdom of God is among you/in you.’ It seems Jesus ‘played it by ear’ with his Father and that’s more or less what I’m doing.

            Like

          • I’m DYING to ask you where, from what source(s) you are referencing with ‘aversions to doing signs for the Jews’ and ‘his insistence on a spiritual kingdom inside’ rather than physically on Earth, and “Jesus ‘played it by ear’ with his Father“. Where is that coming from exactly? But I already know that answer. So I won’t ask. 😉

            Hence, again you fall into the category of “Special Revelation” as to how you wing it with God/Iesos/Yeshua. This method is perplexing, confusing when you choose to be a Non-Conformist Christian™ yet STILL reference history and the Holy Scriptures. 🤔

            If I’m honest, it all sounds like an oxymoron, or dichotomy, or paradox this strange (subjective) personal posture on your “faith.”

            Liked by 1 person

          • ‘He that is of God hears God’s words.’

            Mmmm, yep! ‘Heard’… just like Jim Jones did in Jonestown, Guyana (1978), and David Koresh in Waco/Mount Carmel, Texas (1993). Unless Arnold, you care to explain in exhaustive detail how their hearing of God’s Words/Commands were wrong and heretical. I’d VERY MUCH like to “hear” your explanation of your Christian™ brethren! 🙂

            Like

          • As a matter a fact Arnold, Jim Jones and David Koresh were BOTH “winging it,” flying by the seat of their pants, as it were, as you describe Jesus/Iesos/Yeshua doing with Yahweh.

            I’ll give you this Arnold, you a brave, BRAVE Christian™ soldier to ask Nan to post this post for you then take on the onslaught of us Evil-doing, Christ-hating, Secularists and Atheists. Perhaps it was your “faith, to go out into the Fallen, sinful world of non-believers,” OR you were naïve to what would be endured here. But nevertheless, it took some kahoonas to take this on. I nod to your bravery Sir, despite not presenting a decent argument as to “Why did Jesus need to die and rise again?”

            You will take from this one of two things: 1) hard lessons learned that you have a long, LONG way in your apologetics of your “faith,” or 2) you’ll begin to realize how many holes, contradictions, problems, unsolvable unanswerable certain specific origins of your Faith are weak, and ultimately… untenable in the end. So as a result, you must totally rely on personal, highly subjective God Helmet experiences that simply CANNOT be verified by anyone except yourself.

            Do you see your bad dilemma?

            Like

          • Yes, I think Jesus lived a life of resistance from family, townsfolk, religious leaders, even his own disciples.

            And like him, my dilemma is by choice. It’s in me so I’m living it out. My focus is narrowing to the life of God, in me.

            We all have doubts yet I’m sure of this- I live a life of faith measured up against Jesus’ death and resurrection.

            I’ve never had or looked for helmet experiences. I live transparent with God and people- apologetics have no place.

            Like

          • I understand Arnold the theology you’ve just explained—I spent 4-yrs at a Christian college obtaining my Bachelor’s in History, Philosophy, and Bible. Then as a (soccer) missionary on many missions trips both domestically and abroad. After those 6-yrs then I did 3.5 yrs at Seminary (RTS – Jackson, MS) acquiring post-grad work while on staff at my church as Co-Director of the Single’s Ministry. IOW, I know inside and out what you have said here and all times previously. But I have a little bone to pick with you about what you claim or suppose:

            I live a life of faith measured up against Jesus’ death and resurrection.

            “Resurrection”? Again, what or whom are your source(s) of information that this resurrection event took place? Please be precise and specific. Thank you in advance.

            Also, you stated:

            I’ve never had or looked for helmet experiences.

            You might have missed my overall point earlier about the God Helmet studies and results as they apply to you. If I may… because you do not fall very much (if at all) into the Christian™ category of “General Revelation” experiences from your God, but more so into “Special Revelations,” i.e. very personal (& highly subjective) experiences, directions, consolations, etc, from your God as a solo Non-Conformist as we’ve deduced. Hence you certainly could fall into the God Helmet category because although all the volunteers in those studies DID generally experience a God-presence or some sort of Divine-presence, or ominous Dark-presence. BUT, and here’s the point I was implicitly making…

            Every volunteer in the study experienced their OWN unique otherly presence. No one God Helmet experience was identical to another. Why? The reasonable explanation is that the forces (electromagnetic, Quantum, radiation, gravity, and the strong or weak nuclear forces) on and around Earth and in our Solar System and in the Universe… vary. No one force, at any given time, is precisely the same as another elsewhere—barring Quantum Entanglement, but that’s another fascinating field of science we’ll skip.

            The other reasonable explanation are individual brains, more precisely, individual temporal lobes in each person’s skull. Together, these two factors interact to form some sort of God-presence or Divine-presence, or an ominous Dark-presence, OR something not restricted to those three experiences. IOW Arnold, your temporal lobes—though different than anyone else’s—are stimulated at various different times by various degrees of ‘forces’ (pulses) in different locations. Perhaps because your temporal lobes are sensitive to certain ‘forces’ of the Earth and Universe, you alone experience Other-presences. But that certainly cannot or does not equate to just ONE of the three Abrahamic religions. In fact, it doesn’t even prove a Theistic deity exists. And it CERTAINLY does not prove the veracity of a death-defying “Son of God.” Which brings me to my final point.

            Do you have total faith in the complete truth of every word in the Greco-Roman four Gospels of your New Testament and the history they testify to, or do you not? If you do not, that WOULD explain your Non-Conformity to a mainstream Christianity™ and its theology that is based on the Greco-Roman New Testament. HOWEVER, by default it also would put you into a God Helmet group of spiritualists and all their random, unique/subjective experiences of Other-presences like you’ve always defaulted to when challenged about your belief/faith in the veracity of your Holy Scriptures. Which begs the possibility that you may not even be Christian!

            Anyway, I hope this further clarifies the point of me bringing up the God Helmet studies. 🙂

            As a review, I’ve asked you two sets of questions here. Thank you in advance for your responses to them.

            Liked by 1 person

          • The resurrection story is common knowledge, referenced almost 2000 years ago around Jerusalem. The reason I believe it is because I believe Jesus Christ is the truth. Although I think it highly unlikely that every word in the Greco-Roman four gospels and the history they testify to are complete truth.

            Like

          • The resurrection story is common knowledge…

            That is not an answer Arnold, especially when I specifically asked you: “Again, what or whom are your source(s) of information that this resurrection event took place? Please be precise and specific. Thank you in advance.”

            “Common knowledge” as your answer is a bit of a cop-out, honestly? So, that question remains. Please answer it precisely and specifically. Thank you sir.

            And thank you for answering the 2nd question:

            Although I think it highly unlikely that every word in the Greco-Roman four gospels and the history they testify to are complete truth.

            Your answer here to #2 will make your full precise, specific answer to question #1 very, VERY intriguing. Thanks in advance. 🙂

            Like

          • Specifically my Source is precisely IN me. I credit God as my witness. Jesus said “Return to me.. Come unto me’ throughout the bible. He wants personal relationship. And the volume of NT manuscripts is plenty enough for me to test the Word of God in everyday life.

            Like

          • First Arnold, I want to say I appreciate your patience with my/our “probing questions.” And also, let it be known that you are still avoiding what I’ve asked. That’s revealing. Anyway…

            Regarding YOUR belief/faith in Iesos’/Yeshua’s death and his assumed/supposed rise back to an “ambiguously natural” 😉 life for 40-days and at least (presumably) eight appearances before shooting off to heaven. However, here’s the major problems/contradictions with your current stance Arnold about this death, resurrection, and ascension…

            In several (many?) responses in the past you’ve given us, Nan, myself, and her other non-Christians—without scouring back over your many comment-responses over an indefinite time for precise verbatim quotes you’ve made—you’ve made it clear that you do not 100% trust the very canonical Greco-Roman New Testament you keep referencing as truthful history regarding Iesos’/Yeshua’s death and rise. You are and have been contradicting yourself repeatedly. With respect, that’s the very definition of oxymoronic talk!

            Furthermore, whether you realize it or not, or truly understand it or not, there are no independent manuscripts or sources—IOWs not Greco-Roman Christian or Judeo-Christian sources—that could corroborate or verify this fanciful Iesos’/Yeshua’s death and rise story OUTSIDE OF the canonical Gospels and Greco-Roman New Testament. To further elaborate, have you ever heard of a Kangaroo Court? As it relates to Independent sources/verifications versus Dependent or very Biased sources/verifications? To put it another way, if you were accused of a felony crime you did not commit, but your case’s judge, the plaintiff lawyers, and all the jury members (who also hate you) heard only from “witnesses” the plaintiff’s wanted on the witness-role, and this is strictly how the court & judge want it setup… do you feel you’d get a fair trial? Of course not! That’s a Kangaroo Court. That’s also Dependent or very Biased sources or slighted, or rigged verifications.

            That is precisely what your Gospels and canonical Greco-Roman NT is Arnold. There’s no unbiased or fair Independent sources, manuscripts, etc, to corroborate or confirm what the fantastic stories portray! Hell, there isn’t even ANY extant Jewish manuscripts/sources directly relating to by naming Iesos, Yeshua, or Christos to come to the rescue of this/your heavy Kangaroo Court! Yes, no wonder you have doubts as you’ve stated earlier here and other blog-comments, regarding the veracity of your Gospels/NT. Therefore, you rely HEAVILY upon and often default to unverifiable, highly subjective and personal “ME ONLY,” or strictly Arnold. No one can challenge what YOU alone want in your head and heart. 🤷‍♂️

            See now why you are in such a Catch-22 based upon very weak reasoning and a LOT of personal emotions?

            And the volume of NT manuscripts is plenty enough for me to test the Word of God.

            Correction! That so called “volume of NT manuscripts,” in reality Arnold is nowhere NEAR as ‘enormous’ as you imply and have wrongly tricked yourself into believing. Sorry sir. And though I could go on further, deeper, into the highly problematic Gospel stories of a bogus resurrection and ascension (Greek Apotheosis in reality) which I’ve done aplenty over on my blog, but I won’t here. I’ll spare Nan and all her wonderful Followers what they likely already know too. Because several of us/them are deconverted Christians™ who FINALLY woke from our hypnotizing chains of deceit and untruthfulness called Greco-Roman Christianity™. We all know now it’s a scam and simply NOT verifiable (independently) history. Period.

            Best regards Arnold. Thanks again for your patience here. 🙂

            Liked by 1 person

          • 🤣 It is indeed, but you know Madame I could go round and round with any blind-faither about their erroneous indoctrination. 😈 But all too often they cannot suspend, even temporarily, their self-induced Xian coma. 🤷🏻‍♂️

            But as always Madame, you are right and display it with graceful eloquence. ❤️

            Liked by 1 person

          • Wow Prof, I really appreciate YOUR patience with me. Because I have avoided the non-evidence etc for Jesus’ claims and resurrection. Because you’re right. So thank YOU sir for your patience. I hope we continue to openly converse with one another.

            Liked by 1 person

          • So, Arnold, if you have doubts about what’s contained in the gospels, how can you believe that JC is “the truth” when essentially the gospels are all about him? How can you believe in the resurrection when the only place it’s referenced is in the gospels?

            It seems as though you “pick and choose” the parts that validate your personal beliefs. Of course, this isn’t unusual. I would venture to say every believer does the same … which is exactly why non-believers continue to probe and question not only you, but every person that calls themselves a Christian.

            Liked by 1 person

          • I believe me Nan. While I read a couple chapters a day I’m kinda done scouring the bible for beliefs etc because Christ in me is my day to day life. My conversation.

            Like

        • My point was that theology is an essential component of Christianity. In my analogy, theology is the wheels which make the bike functional. The Bible is supposed to be God’s instruction manual, is it not?

          Liked by 2 people

          Reply

          • Well the theology wheels are falling off Christianity! Yes the bible IS supposed to be Christianity’s instructional manual, yet we don’t raise our kids that way. We relate to them, we get down to their level, experience every day nitty gritties with them. Talking patiently, teaching by example. We love and take care of them. That’s why I firmly believe God wants personal relationship with him, not focusing on obeying the letter of the Law.

            Liked by 1 person

          • OK so theology isn’t that important to you then? Yes I used to hear what you said in church all the time. Problem is, this so called God made these laws. Why would he have to change his mind, and decide that previously important laws were now no longer as relevant? It might be excusable if you or I change our mind about things, but for God to do this makes him seem less, well.. God. Love is also a part of theology. It seems like you selectively follow some aspects of your Bible, and ignore the rest. But hey, I used to do the same, and every other Christian on the planet does it.

            Liked by 3 people

          • And this is exactly why there are literally thousands and thousands of churches … all with “slightly” different views of how the Christian life should be lived. And each person that attends that church thinks they’re right and the others are, well, maybe not “wrong,” … just misguided.

            It boggles the mind that SO MANY claim the title of “Christian” when each one has a slightly different view of the Big Picture. Even Arnold.

            But hey! They’re ALL going to heaven, right?

            Liked by 2 people

  7. No, Arnold, it is NOT reason enough. And I’m not going to let you off the hook (and obviously, neither is Ark) because YOU wanted me to ask the question. Tell the unbelievers in the crowd WHY Jesus had to die and rise again. What purpose did the death of an itinerant preacher accomplish? Let’s hear the nitty-gritty. Here’s your chance!

    Liked by 4 people

    Reply

    • Well, for centuries top scholars, atheist to skeptic to evangelic exhaustively scrutinize Jesus’ death and resurrection. And they’re no closer to the answer. Apologists all over the map argue him into existence or dissolve him by analysis.

      Whereas I’m proving him (looking him in the eye) in life’s endless nitty gritties. No, I’m no closer to the knowing either, yet what have I to lose? I’m walking with the God who I firmly believe died and rose again so to give his lifeblood to me.

      I don’t think of his death as a sacrifice; it was an offering. For sin, for death, for the world. And he arose alive to give me his life.

      Like

      Reply

      • Much better answer! But WHY did an unknown Jewish man have to die to “give his lifeblood” to you?

        There are thousands and thousands of folks who have died in wars for no other reason than to keep the people of America from falling into the hands of an enemy. Why don’t we worship them? Their deaths were also offerings, were they not? Why do we segregate an unknown Jewish man and make HIS death so special? Other than the words in a very old story, what evidence do you have that this particular man’s death was notable?

        Liked by 1 person

        Reply

      • …for centuries top scholars, atheist to skeptic to evangelic exhaustively scrutinize Jesus’ death and resurrection. And they’re no closer to the answer.

        FIRE ALARM! FIRE ALARM! 🚨🚒 The flaming “incorrect” siren, lights, water-sprays are screaming & shooting on this erroneous claim! 😉

        Actually, the answers are more than sufficient enough today for any reasonable person to see the anachronistic scam. 🙂

        Like

        Reply

    • Yes … most definitely NOT “A” !! I think most of my readers already know that one. I think B would be far more intriguing/interesting … and potentially create some discussion via any believers that might pop by.

      Liked by 1 person

      Reply

      • I’m relieved you chose “B)” Nan because most Christians™ cannot even agree amongst themselves as to this question’s theological significance. As we’ve already noted by Arnold’s replies, he is just one perfect example out of approximately 2.38-billion different, opposed Believers. One would get completely lost on the merry-go-round and exhausted with a never-ending game of Whack-a-Mole if we TRIED to decipher a consensus among Christian Faith-followers around the world. Maddening it is.

        It begs the questions, WHY won’t God/Christos sort this all out immediately!? And WHY after some two (2) millenia hasn’t God/Christos or the Holy Spirit done it already!? Why the confusing hide-n-seek games with His fallen, separated creatures? Oh well, nevertheless we’ll move on.

        Alright, so “Why did Jesus need to die and rise again?” from a Secular-Independent POV, or non-Greco-Roman Believer POV?

        Perhaps from the perspective of Josephus (or Saul of Tarsus having to face the same question from pagan Gentiles?) and every Gentile throughout the Eastern Mediterranean during the 1st- thru 2nd-century CE that inquired about this ‘rumored’ dead Messiah/King that was executed by the Romans, would’ve asked… How can a king rule if he is very dead? Right here we MUST remember that the most earliest extant copy of the oldest gospel (Mark), the Codex Sinaiticus, stops dead, ends at Mark 16:8 with the women—and ONLY the women—fleeing in fear from an empty tomb. An empty tomb does NOT by any means translate to a “risen Lord/Messiah.” Also what must be remembered is that the original gospel of Mark could not have been written any earlier than 70 CE, after the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem. The majority of biblical scholars agree on this. The many numerous Church explanations for a (possible) empty tomb I will not go into fully—that’s another unsolvable merry-go-round, especially if one ONLY cross-references the other three LATER gospels with severe tunnel-vision, like most Christians™ do today.

        Therefore, avoiding the traditional, common Greco-Roman Church Father’s 1st- thru 3rd-century CE theological explanations of an empty tomb, what are the other more likely explanations? First off, the women could’ve been at the wrong tomb. Why? Because the Roman authorities KNEW the radical rebellious Jews would want to take his dead body for Judaic burial reasons. The Roman officials would NOT allow this for executions/crucifixions for criminals of rebellious dissent against Rome’s authority. Hence, in anticipation of Iesos’ (Yeshua’s) followers they could switch the site, assuming in the first place the criminal could even receive a Judaic burial. That was rarely granted!

        Second, the whole risen story was fabricated by Saul of Tarsus and his fanatical followers decades and a century later that the earliest Church Fathers picked up and further embellished it to answer the plethora of challenging questions about a DEAD Messiah/King. Ahh, EUREKA! Turn Saul’s (Paul’s) epistles into an entirely DIFFERENT narrative than the reality! Make it a “Spiritual Kingdom” in heaven, not a self-ruling Jewish Kingdom on Earth. But hold on, doing this presented many other contradictory problems with Iesos’ (Yeshua’s) steeped background in Late Second Temple Judaism/Messianism.

        So how did the late 1st- then 2nd- thru 3rd-century Greco-Roman theological Church Fathers flip these tricks to ordinary Gentiles? James, the Brother of Yeshua/Jesus, and the Leader of the Jerusalem Counsel that some/several of Yeshua’s/Jesus’ followers were absorbed into, were never going to buy into a Hellenistic version of Jewish Messianism. Never! Period. Ahh, said the Greco-Roman Church Fathers, ‘We will sever our ties with the Torah-lovers and INVENT our own (falsified) spiritual King into a recognizable version Gentiles will comprehend better, commonly called Greek Apotheosis, a very old, long established tradition.’ And so it began…

        From my Sept. 2019 blog-post, “Christ: The Roman Ruse“:

        • You Can’t Pre-select Your Pedigree and Un-Pedigree Your Pedigree. Problem #1.

        Tactic #1 – DEFORMING Jesus’ FAMILY HERITAGE. Otherwise, the actual Yeshua will never fulfill the SIX (6) Requisites for Jewish Messiahship. See my Sept. 2019 blog-post for more details.

        • Overhauling and Rewriting History: For the Victor Go the Spoils. Problem #2.

        Tactic #2 – DEFORMING JEWISH MESSIANISM’s HISTORY. Why do this? It must be accepted as fact that not one single Apostolic-Patristic Church Father of earliest Christianity was born a Jew. They were all Hellenists or Greco-Romans.

        Tactic #3 – DEFACING and VANDALIZING MESSIANIC JUDAISM. After many key figures and groups of Torah and Temple Judaism and Palestinian Judaism were exterminated or dismantled and pushed out of Jerusalem and the Levant after the destruction of the Temple in 70 CE, then irrevocably at Masada in 74 CE, Hellenic-Herodian traditions, more favored by Gentile Romans, were primed to fill the socio-religious void left behind by Vespasian’s seven Roman Legions. See my Sept. 2019 blog-post for more details.

        Tactic #4 – DEFACING ALL OF JUDAISM. As more and more new unanticipated theological, eschatological, and scriptural problems and contradictions arose against early Christian Church leaders and bishops during the 2nd, 3rd, and early 4th centuries in connection with their Christ versus Yeshua bar Yosef’s Messianic Jewish heritage, Hellenic-Pauline Gentile Church leaders recognized they had to further depart, distance themselves, and sever all ties from Judaism and their Messianic doctrines to appear legit to all non-Jews. Enter the imperial Roman fathering of blatant anti-Semitism. See my Sept. 2019 blog-post for more details.

        • New Bed-Partners: Hellenic Overseas Judaism & Roman Social Welfare. Problem #3.

        Tactic #5 – DIVERTING NON-ROMAN RESOURCES into ROMAN RESOURCES. Once Rome’s imperial frustrations—from Vespasian through the following three emperor’s up to Hadrian then Titus—of radical Jewish-Messianic zealots in Palestine were vanquished and the surviving pockets of Jews lost all desire for Earthly independence, diversions from the actual facts of Jewish-Roman history (as covered above) were increasingly rewritten to accommodate a stronger, Monistic, orthodox Roman Church with a Roman Messiah, or Christ. See my Sept. 2019 blog-post for more details.

        • CONCLUSION.

        Today, these three cancerous D’s above illegally incarcerated are now badly convoluted inside modern Protestant evangelical-fundamental Christianity™ and Catholicism. These Christians have developed a vaccination of an antibiotic-resistance or cognitive impunity upon its masses. Why? Because far too many scholars, secularists, and intellectuals, Secular or honest ministers, are not injecting the antibiotic of the authentic, verified Second Temple Judaism/Messianism and Sectarianism as it applies directly and indirectly to Yeshua bar Yosef (Jesus) the Nasoraean/Nasari. The end.

        I know, I KNOW Nan! You’re screaming, “THIS is your abbreviated answer!?” 😄 But honestly, and you know me and my background and education, particularly 3.5-years in seminary, very well… this is indeed a truncated, abbreviated Secular-Independent answer to your question. Cross my heart Madame! 😍

        Liked by 3 people

        Reply

  10. “Why did Jesus need to die and rise again?”

    For the same reason going back in time and pre-dating “the story of Jesus” that human-kind has had some form of belief in rising again after death regardless of the reason for death.

    Life. Death. After-life.

    Humanity has always favoured mystery that evolves into literalism. We literally believe a mystery. It makes us feel better but in order to have power, control and money, we have to believe it literally.

    Jesus had to die and without the after-life (literal rising), there would be no story. No control, no power, no money.

    Liked by 5 people

    Reply

  11. It’s an unusual question, but central to the Christian faith of course. Certainly primitive and one must wonder why an omnipotent all-knowing God would have to do something like that, if he were to save humankind.

    One can’t answer that question without considering the context surrounding the historicity (or lack thereof) of the Gospels. Written accounts only surfaced a very long time after the so called events occurred, and religious propaganda took priority over fact when it came to sharing these stories. Then you have the problems surrounding the historicity of Jesus himself. For the scholars who believe a Jesus existed, there is no consensus around if Jesus even planned to die or not.

    So if you believe in the Christian narrative, then a Christian answer (which you have likely heard hundreds of times before) would suffice (as silly as it sounds). If not, then it’s a bit like asking why did Snape kill Dumbledore in the Harry Potter series… because the author wanted to write that? In the case of Christianity, it must have bolstered the religion somehow, to make out that Jesus died and rose again… and he did it for me and you. If the story was told that Jesus just died, then that’s nothing special.

    Liked by 1 person

    Reply

  12. He died for our sins, I was told. So that was a great personal gift of sacrifice – even if 99% of the global population didn’t notice it at the time, and about 70% of them still don’t give it a thought. I must say though, that as an eight year old, it didn’t really make much sense to me, anyway.
    The fact that he rose up again, apparently none the worse for wear, sort of takes the shine off the gift a bit too, don’t you think? Isn’t that called ‘Indian giving’? And even after that he didn’t hang about for long to provide any sort of clear explanation, leaving us all to put whatever spin we liked on the little fairytale. Which we did.

    So, it wouldn’t be long, of course, before Christians, now freed of guilt, took it upon themselves to march around in great armies, slaughtering non-believers for their sins – making into a much fairer user-pays kind of system, focusing more on the ‘taking away’ bit, than the ‘giving’.

    But perhaps the real message of the story is that ‘death is not the end’, because, just like Jesus, sinners always keep popping up again somewhere else, no matter how hard we try to slaughter them and their ideas.

    So why did Jesus need to die and rise again? Let’s cut the guy some slack – he probably just thought it was a good idea at the time.

    Liked by 4 people

    Reply

  13. Dang nab bit! I’m late to the party again. Since I am an atheist there was no god or Jesus in my opined conclusion. This is not for me. So, I respectfully pass. But…one for you…

    I was teaching Catholic RE (Religious Education) to Jr. Hi age children (pre-out as atheist days). As we were discussing a similar topic. One of the students asked, ” I understand why he had to die and all that. But why did he have to die like that?”

    My garbled answer was probably along the lines of “the ways of the time” or “crucifixion was how they executed at that time.” But I was guessing.

    I think Arnold has been over-proselytized by a Southern Baptist. Just calling like I sees it.

    Liked by 2 people

    Reply

    • It was indeed how they executed people in them days, and then again not really. The Romans picked it up from the Egyptians, who used to nail people onto the cross shaped flood markers along the Nile. The idea is, that the death comes by asphyxiation just for not being able to set down hands from a position, that causes fluids to build up into lungs, during a long period of time – most often a couple of days, but sometimes longer, if the sentenced is in strong physical condition, like a gladiator from the Spartacus rebellion, or a labourer, such as for example a carpenter. So, according to the story Jesus got the light versions of both the execution, as he was up only for one afternoon, and the death, as he was dead only for a couple of days. Where did he go? To Heaven, or Hell? If he was indeed without sin (presumably having never acted against his own will) did he deserve to visit Hell, if so how was he treated there by his brother/other son? If he went deservingly to them Heavens, what was the sacrifice? I do not really understand this story, but apparently not understanding it will get me sentenced to suffer in Hell for an eternity, wich I might add seems both a bit unfair and quite a bit exessive.

      Liked by 3 people

      Reply

  14. In my humble opinion, I feel that this idea was created as a way of justifying and validating his divine power and him being a saviour of the world; despite being crucified and dying, Jesus actually came back to life, unlike others who don’t come back from the dead.

    This idea was to portray Jesus as a truly supernatural, divine figure, and thus convince and further strengthen people’s belief that he truly was the son of God.

    Liked by 2 people

    Reply

  15. People are free to choose to believe The Bible accounts if they wish to do so. As for me, I regard it as a legend on a par with all the other ancient legends that are based on fear of the unknown.
    Best wishes, Pete.

    Liked by 3 people

    Reply

    • @pete
      Except they ALSO choose to spread the Good News( sic) and that is not good news at all, especially when this nonsense is Indoctrinated into children who have little or no defense.

      Liked by 1 person

      Reply

        • Not a widespread problem in the UK …however
          A while back I followed the blog of Johnny Scaramanga who attained his PhD writing about ACE – Accelerated Christian Education – a YEC sect.
          He even msnaged to petition the government to conduct an investigation into their sect/ cult practices.
          One of their text books originally included an image of a peasant farmer riding a cart drawn by a dinosaur.
          I kid you not!

          Liked by 1 person

          Reply

  16. If we were to consider Jesus as an actual historical character, the question asked would be absurd and the question to be asked should be reformulated into: Why was what happened later describid and possibly even interpreted as a resurrection by some of the contemporaries?

    We do not assume supernathural explanations of superstitious contemporaries to be true in other cases. Hence the question why, is rendered useless. Resurrections do not happen. It is not even a viable explanation, as we have no clue how it could happen and we have not observed any under even remotely reliable wittness. “God did it” is a poor claim, as we have no evidence of said god, any more than we have on any other gods. Now, if it were a one of freak event, it would be extremely extraordinary. According to occams razor, if there is a less extraordinary explanation to an event, then that is most likely true. In case of Jesus, some insignificant rabbi became important, as he seemed to fullfill some old prophesies when he actually did not die in the execution, because one of his wealthy follower bribed the soldiers not to kill him and hand over his body. This had to be kept secret, as it was highly illegal, but the theatrics led some of his followers to jump to conclusions. Soon after th the original story (Gospel of Mark) was embellished out of proportion (Gospel of Matt), since the original story with supernatural explanation was not compelling, or even plausible to anyone but those already invested to the character of Jesus. Not then. Not now.

    If we do not consider Jesus a historical person, the story is a typical myth, with elements from the mythos of the area where it was born. Resurrection itself seems like a rather boring cultural loan from Egypt, the semi-divine character of Jesus from Hellenic culture, his teachings largely a combination from Zoroasterian and other older Levant religions like Judaism. Paul then added a Roman taste to the story by his demands of short hair for men etc.

    Liked by 3 people

    Reply

      • Yeah. As trivial as such incursion to the world of fashion may appear , it is a good reminder of who was trying to sell to whom and what. It also gives a view on in what culture the story was cooked. Without Romanization the new religion would hardly have risen into anything significant, but then it would be a totally different religion all together. One could even say, that such a cultural amalgam was likely to give rise in the crucible of the geographic center of the joint between the Hellenic and Roman worlds on the platform of ancient cultures of Egypt, Levant, Asia Minor and Persia. Pax Romana then enabled the spread and Paulianic elements of the story in total contradiction to Jesus made it possible for the power elite to assume the new religion as a crowd control tool.

        Liked by 2 people

        Reply

        • It is ironic or probably hypocritical that in general every Christian depiction of the character Jesus of Nazareth is of a man with long hair. Yet, long hair on men, especially in the 20th century , and more so post war ( hippies etc) has generally been regarded as a sign of degeneracy!
          “Long haired layabouts” was a term often bandied about when I was growing up!

          Like

          Reply

          • Ha! I have sported a long hair almost my entire adult life, excluding the time in the military. It is telling, how this thing was important to Paul. If it is true, that Jesus never broke a single commandment, then he also kept to the do not cut your hair order from OT, that the Orthodox Jews take literally even today. The earliest picture of Jesus is Byzantine and depicts him with a kind of bushy afro-hairdo. The reason he is often presented as a blue-eyed, long haired blond guy, was originally in medieval art. For centuries the ruling classes in Christendom were of Germanic barbarian descendants who looked like that. They simply could not imagine any god depictions, that did not look like themselves. Naturally there have been generational fluxes to this. A Saxon lord wrote to his brother, that he had heard the brother was imitating the Danes and had let his hair grow long, wich the lord thought both unfitting for a Christian and dangerous, since the hair could blind him on a crucial moment in combat. Clearly neither were concerns of the Danes as they were crushing Christian armies at the time as Vikings. A few centuries later some older noblemen were concerned of the new fashion spreading among the youth to cut the hair short, as they thought it was not fitting of the knightly class and made the boys look like priests. Current short hair fashion began during the Napoleonic wars, up to wich the long hair was the hallmark of a soldier. So much so, that if you could not grow your own, a wig was expected. Poor hygienic conditions had an impact to this new trend of short hair and colonialism turned it into a symbol of civilization as opposed so many coquered and exploited nations around the globe could wear their hair long due to better hygieny compared to the Christian westerners.

            I think either Paul was trying to sell his new religion to Romans, who imitated legions forced to camp life, or he was a bitter baldy guy, or likely both. Either way he knew just about enough of the Torah to exploit it, but not that much anyway, or most likely did not even care about contradictions. From his writing he seems like a self important dick, and a bullshit artist who thought he could explain black to white.

            Liked by 2 people

          • During my thirties I grew my hair to around the middle of my back!
            When I went out marathon training I would occasionally get whistled at by passing motorists who mistook me for a woman.
            I stopped to stretch an aching hamstring against a wall during a hill training session one evening when three blokes in a pick- up truck stopped, and after addressing be as ‘darling’ offered to give me a lift.
            They took off rather quickly, and with red faces when I turned, grinned and said, “Thanks all the same, fellas, but my wife is expecting me home for dinner. ”
            Eventually it just became too much of a chore to maintain it and when I took a job as a kitchen manager in a restaurant I decided enough was enough!
            But it was fun while it lasted.
            😀

            Liked by 2 people

    • As an ex-Christian, the early history of Christianity fascinates me. We will probably never know for sure what Jesus really did/didn’t do, assuming there even was a historical Jesus. I do like your explanations however. It’s certainly easy to assume that he was some ordinary rabbi, who was later assigned supernatural powers much later on. There are some who consider he was originally divine and made up completely, and later assigned ‘human status’.

      Liked by 2 people

      Reply

      • I think the magic stories may have started on some healing skils such a rabbi might have learned from the Nazarines while living with them. (Nazaeth did not yet exist, so his name suggests to me he was a Nazarine monk.) Most likely the miracle stories got a new significance and were both embellished and made up after the dissappointment of his assumed death and return, when it seemed he had achieved the impossible. It is quite human, that people turn around some hero of theirs, expect the impossible from the hero, like indipendence from the Roman Empire. Their spirits drop when the hero fails the impossible mission, but imagine the emotional satisfaction of the crowd when rumour spreads, that the hero resurrected and could not be won by the evil empire. All the expectations placed on the hero seem to have fulfilled, even though none did. He won! That is what matters, and that people felt less disappointed, and that their guesses, prejudices and biases were justified, so they could feel safe and trusting in their intuition to be right in the future also. It may seem like a flimsy base, but in the situation it may even answer the original question of the topic post; if Jesus had not done this seemingly miraculous stunt, his teachings would not have carried far enough to create a new religion, or even if they had, the notions he introduced, like sell all your property and give the money to the poor, or do not have any children, for the end is nigh, would have not carried very far among choises of religions at the very pluralistic athmosphere of the Roman Empire. And we would not be even having this discussion.

        Liked by 2 people

        Reply

        • rautakyy, you mentioned “indipendence from the Roman Empire” — I wonder if Christians today actually recognize that this was a major concern for the Jews in biblical days. In fact, as I recall, this was the main theme of John’s writings in the book of Revelation.

          As most of us recognize, however, in today’s world it’s all about “me and my salvation.” Few take into consideration the story behind the story. If they did, perhaps things would take on an entirely different perspective.

          Liked by 1 person

          Reply

    • Better yet … simply take away the bible and its fairy tales and voila! The entire matter would never come up for discussion. (But then this blog post would never have happened either. 😀)

      Liked by 1 person

      Reply

      • You don’t want to do that. You don’t want to take away the Bible, you just want to take away the religious teachings that tell people to take it literally. Without a grounding in biblical literature (or Greek & Roman mythological literature), most of Western literature has no meaning. I see this all the time in current discussions with younger people … they don’t have any idea what the great classics mean (even Shakespeare!) because they don’t have any idea what the great myths are & they take the Bible literally. & they don’t know most of the Bible, just the cherry-picked pieces that their evangelical church has fed them.

        AND … if you point this out to them, you’ll get an earful about how that’s all “literature by white men” & how literature needs to “decolonize” itself, which is one of the stupidest things I have ever heard. All literature, all myths, all religion is borrowed from all other literature, all other myths, all other religion. The more you study these things, the more you realize this. Even Disney’s whitewashed Cinderella had its beginning in an ancient Chinese folktale. I get tired of hearing “decolonize” … like the English, the French, the Spanish, the Dutch, were the only ones to go anywhere else in the world. What a narrow view of history & a narrower view of literature.

        Sorry for getting off topic here a little bit & sorry for the rant this morning!

        Liked by 2 people

        Reply

  18. “Why did Jesus need to die and rise again?”

    He didn’t. There was no need for him to die. But the plot called for it, and that’s the way that drama works.

    As for rising again — that’s also a standard part of drama, except that it usually happens between performances rather than part of the performance.

    I do think this is all pretty stale. Human sacrifice went out of fashion a long time ago. The script writers need to modernize their script.

    Liked by 2 people

    Reply

  19. Clearly this is a stupid action on Yahweh’s part. He merely spoke the curse into being, but he needed a human sacrifice to lift it? Sounds weak to me.

    A better question might be “How did Jesus feel about the need to die and rise again?” Imagine being created for the sole purpose of being a human sacrifice. (Yes, I know that myriad other reasons for Jesus have been described, but none of those were dreamt up until after his sacrifice, so those are all imagined.) Even Jesus had to dream up his own rationale for his mission (which he got from his cousin, John the Baptizer). Did he have private thoughts of “I am just a tool.” and “Why me?”

    Liked by 1 person

    Reply

  20. If religion were a ‘thing’ in reality, there would be no argument, no questioning, no sharp discussion about if or maybe or how come; it would just be.
    I like to think we’re maturing (albeit slowly) away from needing a big sky daddy to dictate right and wrong. Centuries ago we needed something to explain away weather, celestial stuff, rising tides and Why People Die.
    We can now explain, satifactorally, how these things occur, yet so many people insist that a god is beaming down on them judging, praising. We still have to learn how to take credit for our own ideas.
    Religion is a crutch that excuses us from independent thinking, from making mistakes and recovering from them (“god took the wheel and saved my life”) , and like any three year old, we are beginning to figure out how to do stuff without praying to an invisible being.

    We are still clinging to it, but not as tightly. Maybe someday we’ll be able to give up our Sky Daddy beliefs entirely, the way kids eventually give up on Santa. (I do kinda miss Santa, though. He was fun.)

    Liked by 1 person

    Reply

  22. Hello Nan, if I could add in my humble interpretation, Jesus had to “die” to show the world that physical death is not the end. His “return”, so to say, shows the continuation of the spirit.
    Life is eternal, but no the life in the body. the body we need to change like we change our clothes. Why? Simply because all material things are perishable. I think that’s the moral of Shelley’s famous poem “Ozymandias”.
    Now, if he came back, did Jesus really die? Of course not. Spirit cannot die or change. This how how I read it. Thank you!

    Liked by 1 person

    Reply

    • Spoken like a true believer … which surprises me. Based on your comments on Jim’s blog, I would not have described you as such. UNLESS you are simply responding to the question rather than sharing your “belief”?

      In any event, I’m glad you stopped by, 2caravans. I hope you’ll join in on other conversations.

      Liked by 1 person

      Reply

Don't Be Shy -- Tell Us What You Think!

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.