Credit: Lamm Jewish Library of Australia
Discovering the Jewish Jesus
On one of my other posts, the question was asked: “has no one ever considered that Jesus was not a christian?”
Now I realize that many would immediately know the answer, yet from comments made on this blog as well as others, it would seem there are some individuals who might actually describe Jesus as a “Christian.”
In fact, Yeshua (Jesus) was Jewish.
Does this make a difference? I believe it does. And the reason I believe this is because modern day readers of the Bible rarely consider Jesus’ heritage. Why? Because their entire concept of Christianity is based upon the writings of Paul — who was actually speaking to the Gentiles (non-Jews) of that era, none of whom had any use for a Jewish preacher. This meant that he had to modify the personhood of Yeshua into someone whom the Gentiles would accept. And, as is obvious today, he was quite adept at that task.
One of the first things Paul did was to give Yeshua a new title. Drawing from his Greek leanings, Paul began referring to Jesus as the christos (Christ), thereby removing the Hebrew title of mashiach (Messiah). Although both words mean “anointed one,” the use of the Greek title was more familiar to his intended Greco/Roman audience and helped remove any reference to Jesus’ “Jewishness.”
Paul also knew the Gentiles referred to their deities as kurios (“lord” in Greek), so he further assisted his cause by frequently using this title when he talked about Jesus (Lord Jesus Christ, Christ Jesus our Lord).
Thus, taking these points into consideration, is it at all surprising that some folks today might refer to Jesus as a “Christian?”
There is little doubt that Paul played a MAJOR role in the establishment of today’s Christian beliefs. Although it is personal opinion only, I believe Paul had aspirations of being a Religious Leader of his time and by promoting a dying-rising savior familiar to his non-Jewish audience, he was able to build a religion, albeit rooted in Jewish beliefs, that millions (of Non-Jews) devotedly and passionately follow today.
(I can’t help but think that if Paul could look into the world of today, he would have been so proud.)
Nan's Notebook 
Jesus was a Jew and worked in a small Jewish deli in Jerusalem called “Christ, can this place make great matzah ball soup!” Very few people know this.
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One of the main problems with this is that Jesus has been framed by the Christian movement as a reformer of some type. The “Antitheses” (“You’ve heard it said that…..but I say…..”) are portrayed as his rejection of Jewish Law when it was anything but. There are a number of quotations from Jesus himself that reinforce the need to conform to the Law at all times. This was, quite literally, non-negotiable.
Furthermore, most people are wholly ignorant of the first three to four centuries of Christianity’s development when many of the decisions that formulated the theology were being “ironed out” and Yeshua’s character was being created for the masses. I have said in the past that if he were to show up today he wouldn’t recognize himself. Certainly going to a church service he wouldn’t understand what the hell anyone was talking about!
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He said to ‘be perfect, complete’ which begins by receiving his Spirit.
And in turn we Christians say, ‘I’m not perfect.’ And slap him in the face.
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so you pure spiritual christian’s who literally see him are still fond of that glorious violence? Just like your genocidal Canaanite tribal god.
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Nothing glorious about violence, yet God does own it.
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RaPaR,
Ah, it is SO refreshing to read someone’s comment, like this one, who KNOW what they’re talking about, have ACTUALLY done the legwork, homework on who Yeshua bar Yosef’s factual AND historical background/reality during the Late Second Temple! I applaud you endlessly! These words, right here:
If I may Nan, this does indeed have good, very plausible support, RaPaR. Dr. Ronald Mosely of the American Institute for Advanced Biblical Studies reports would align with you for sure:
And most all biblical scholars, and more so Jewish scholars of Late Second Temple Judaism/Messianism, know it is (highly? most likely?) plausible that Yeshua/Jesus was around, influenced by and/or influenced the Essenes from Qumran. They too abided heavily in The Law. Please bear with my RaPaR and Nan… 😉 🙏 I really feel this is critical history…
In his Sermon on the Mount (Beatitudes) and later speaking to his students/disciples, generally regarded by scholars as probable words from Jewish-Gospel Jesus, he was reportedly known to teach his followers that they must reach higher Halakha righteousness and purity, as well as greater mutual love for each other deeper than the Pharisees practiced (Matthew 5:20; 18:4-5). Jesus, being an exceptional follower of the Torah, the Mosaic Law, was pulling directly from his sectarian teachings in Deut. 6:4-6 and Lev. 19:18, key components of Essene practice. Another Essene practice followed and taught by Jesus was that of the core principle of non-resistance to evil which was found exemplary in his Synagogues and the Talmud Mishnah:
Those who practiced this two-fold Mosaic concept better than the Pharisees, Jesus taught. In other words, approximately in 80 CE to perhaps 140 CE. That was what Jesus promised (Matt. 18:11-12, 18:8-9; Luke 13:28-29, 14:15-24) followed by such ‘an abundance of over-sized grapes and fruits for the Essenic-Mosaic righteous worthy of the greatest banquet in Paradise’ (Papias, in Irenæus, “Against Heresies,” Book V. Ch. 33—34). This was the Kingdom of God that Jewish-Yeshua/Jesus taught.
Was this what Saul of Tarsus preached? Unequivocally no!
And RaPaR, there are several other stark differences between Saul of Tarsus’ teachings/preachings versus Jewish-Yeshua’s teachings and practices, but they are too many to go into here and I’ve probably already agitated Nan enough just with this short comment. 😉 ❤️
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Sheesh! You’re like a wind-up toy! All someone has to do is turn the knob and off you go! sigh
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🤭
But you are incredibly kind to put up with me—even when Ark winds me up with our footballing and tricks me into it—and you are very patient with me and it IS greatly appreciated. Thank you Madame! ❣️
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Thank you for your kind words, Professor, and for your comments. I’ve told my family and friends many times, “If you really want to follow Jesus and obey his teachings, you’re going to have to be Jewish.” As the Romans continued to move towards Christianity – certainly by Constantine’s times – the writers began to blame the Jews for his execution and sanitize the part of Rome. If Jesus came back today and say in the back of almost any church, he wouldn’t know what the anyone was talking about! Now THAT’S irony!
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One of the principle difference that for some reason really annoys me (not sure why) is the salvation by your works vs salvation by faith in Jesus alone. Jesus mentioned time & again not to pray to show-off your piety and your will be judged by the works you do, particularly for those in need. Think of our preachers today; praying in front of massive TV audiences, speaking in tongues, and whatever, and collecting money. Thank you for your response, very interesting, Professor.
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Try the pastrami! It’s the best in the Jerusalem!
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are contemporary christians really this ignorant? although i am no longer christian, no one i knew thought jesus was a “christian.”
i’m definitely post-christian but i imagine i am more amenable to the fact that people are believers than many atheists i know. religious belief has so many ways to mess a person up but for those for whom it gives them hope in the midst of great difficulty i say, have at it.
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Most are almost certainly aware he was Jewish. However, he is not genuinely portrayed in this light and every ‘picture’ painted of him is somewhat of an outsider when it comes to mainstream Judaism.
The way the gospels were written seems to be with a specific aim in mind – to alienate ‘the Jews’ and create a whiter than white non-semitic gentile friendly god man!
“He’s ours now!”
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HEAR HEAR Arkesatan!!! Bravo!!! Well stated.
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That’s pretty much the case. When you get to John’s gospel, the writers are intentionally removing the blame for the execution of Yeshua from the Romans to the Jews. This is an editing process that took place probably over the course of 100 or 200 years and endeared themselves to Rome at the expense of the Jews, of which Jesus was one.
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And Jesus of Nowhere became an honorary Christian( sic) and they all lived happily ever after.
Amen …
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Paul
feuded continuously with the remaining apostles I have read
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Paul was the Donald Trump of the 1st Century Christianity. While the original 12 Apostles knew Yeshua and learned at his side having been HAND CHOSEN by Yeshua himself. Paul claims to have been “born” an apostle, being appointed even before birth and having received his message through spiritual revelation. He later feuded with the original Apostles – James, the brother of Yeshua, Peter, et al, about some of the most fundamental tenets of the faith. This included whether or not to follow the Law; i.e., circumcision, the Sabbath, kosher foods, etc. Pagans wanted nothing to do with this however the peasants Paul was preaching to liked the idea of a life in paradise after death which was not an aspect of the pagan cults (live well today because tomorrow you could be dead!). Paul utilized various aspects of western mystery cults; dying and rising, etc., which of course pagans could relate to and that seemed to be the magic formula. Read “Acts of the Apostles” and you will learn things you’ve never heard in the pews.
Paul is EXACTLY the “False Prophet” Yes warned the other about and I believe they knew it to be true.
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I suspect that many people are convinced that Jesus was born a Jew but he somehow converted to Christianity and that is why he was crucified.
Never for a moment considering the fact that Christianity came AFTER him, not with him. He had as much to do with the advent of Christianity as Nikolas Tesla does with the new magical exploding cars…
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If it were a simple matter of religious belief giving “hope in the midst of great difficulty,” I doubt there would be so much contention between believers and non-believers. Unfortunately, in too many incidents, this isn’t the case.
As for Jesus being a Christian? I’m never surprised by the beliefs that some folks come up with.
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It wouldn’t surprise me to be told that some Americans think Jesus is one of theirs!
🤦♂️
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I still miss the long gone blogger Jesus General. His image was of AK 47 toting macho man. Republican Jesus was a frequent topic. He gave up his blogging as he had lost all hope.
This was a great summary, Nan. Kudos
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Jesus as a Christian? I love it—
“Hey you—”
“Who, me?”
“Before you kark it up there, and just for the record, what religion are you?”
“… … … oh … I guess you can write me down as a ‘Me-ist’?”
“… bugger … I’ll enter you in the book as a Christian, and be done with it.”
“Christian? Hey (ouch, stupid splinters) I like it; brief, to the point, and it should catch on.”
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What inspired to become post Christian if I may ask?
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If Paul had been alive now I think he’d have read some history and become suicidal. Hugs
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I’ve always heard the old “son of a Jewish carpenter ” thing. Really doesn’t matter because I doubt he ever really existed and if he did, this whole Christ thing is a master of mythology and fantasy…and something the Catholic Church used later to get total control over people.
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I am inclined to go along with Mary (plumbago … not the virgin mum) in harbouring strong doubts in the historical existence of any one person
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Bugger …. hit the send button too early …..
To continue …. I, like Mary (probably not a virgin, but it would be rude to ask) doubt in the existence of any one person fitting the description of this Jesus chap actually existing.
But what are we using here as a definition of ‘a Christian’? Isn’t it one who believes in and follows the teachings of Jesus Christ?
So he was either a Christian or a terrible hypocrite. Obviously he couldn’t have been born a Christian unless empowered with instant self-awareness. Apparently though, he spent the first twenty something years just fucking about like the rest of us, playing football and going fishing with his mates, I suppose ….
So shouldn’t the question be ‘when did Jesus Christ convert to Christianity?’
Am I missing something here?
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No, you’re not missing anything. I just thought the question was rather intriguing in that so many ignore the fact that Yeshua was a JEW … yet Paul turned him into an entirely different character in order to win over the Gentiles.
Plus I think if some people were directly asked if Jesus is a Christian, they would probably answer “Yes” without hesitation.
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Yeah. I get it. I suppose, as a Jew, it would be hard to ‘see the light’ when you ARE the light. I wonder how he broke the news to Mum and Dad about his conversion …..
“Mum, Dad … there is something I need to talk to you about. Hey … wait a minute. Don’t look at me like that. It’s not what you are thinking. I’m not gay ….”
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And when someone is dead and occasionally buried, people are now given free reign to paint the dead as black or as pure as they please. So who can argue? The witnesses have all been dealt with summarily, and Paul was free to knit whatever sweater he wanted about the Messiah. Please note, all the Roman Gods magically were given new Christian names, so that no one had to rearrange the statuary. And in the middle of all this, Rome became the home of the Popes. How convenient.
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some claim he went to India and China and learned Buddhism during his young adulthood
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Well … some fucking manners for a fucking start …
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That isn’t usually me, but it was aimed as some mannerless oaf further up the page and by an act of God didn’t go where intended. (You can go off Gods …)
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Goodness me, Argus, was it I who had somehow offended your sensibilities? Your response is a little cryptic for my feeble mind to fully comprehend, but if so, might you elaborate a little on my mannerless oafishness in order that I may avoid further offence?
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“Christians” are really Paulanites.
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Paulianity!
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As you well know Nan, I am a HUGE HUGE promoter of Yeshua bar Yosef, the Jew and his Tanniatic background, and his very JEWISH background indeed!
I have NEVER understood why Greco-Roman Christians, post 34 CE, are so damn skeered to embrace his hardcore Tanniatic-Mishnaic-Aramaic, NON-Greek background!!! This very fact over the last almost 1,989 years by Greco-Roman Faithers/Believers of Paulianity™ speaks VOLUMNES about just how scared shitless 21st-century back to 4th-century Roman believers are about his TRUE history, family, heritage, and teachings/reforms Yeshua wanted then!!! They have fought HARD to hide it, remove it, hijack it, and disperse near 2 millenia of lies about it, and hide it. But the factual historical facts ALWAYS come back, eventually, to bite you in tha ass! And now it has happened starting with the discovery of at least the Dead Sea Scrolls (Qumran) in 1947 and the Gospel of Thomas in 1945. That opened the flood-gates if you will. 🙂
Nevertheless, Christian Faithers/Believers LOVE to play the maneuver of the Frog in the burning frying pan (till they roast to death) and/or the ostrich head in the sand (until they suffocate from falsities & lack of life lived). Oh well. 🤷♂️ To me, that’s great “Natural Selection.” hehe Let them all go extinct if they so choose. 😉 It WILL happen.
Great post Madame. Thoroughly enjoy THIS subject/scam and its NECESSARY revealing… to those asleep at the wheel. 🙂 (i.e. Arnold, etc.)
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Zzz
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Hahaha! 😄 That’s a good one Arnold. 😉 I use the ‘yawn’ quite often on fanatical Christians too like Silence of Mind (& his Brain) and others. So I can appreciate your good sense of humor Sir. 👏
It’s perfectly fine to humbly admit one’s own shortcomings; I do it quite often when I can’t get my Quantum Mechanics/Physics right or I can’t seem to explain my personal, spiritual relationship with Sasquatch and my theology/evangelism of my Sasquatch-ainiity. 😉 🤭 And opponents of Sasquatch always make me stumble and sound like a raving mad baboon when I can’t convince them that Sasquatch REALLY DOES EXIST. Oh well, 🤷♂️ at least my unwavering (blind?) Faith gets me through each day!
Again, thanks Arnold for your good sense of humor in this. ❣️
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Thanks for being here Prof.
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It’s okay, Arnold can doze off when he drives as it is a given for Christians when faced with the truth about their religion/ faith… as Mellencamp once sang, When the walls come tumbling down, Jesus will take the wheel!
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laughing while sitting in my chair . . . LOL re: Mellencamp with a twist of Underwood
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Wasn’t that a popular Xtian bumper sticker a few years ago—
I still like it. It has pizzazz, a jenny say kwa that nobody’s bested.
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I think (from memory) that there was a school of Xtian loopiness that actually believed that when you personal “bucket of merit” reached overflowing you’d qualify for Heaven and wherever you were, doing whatever … The Lord would reach down and snatch you up to Heaven. (Hard luck on some if you were piloting a planeful of innocents at the time — POOF!)
Hence the “take the wheel” bit. Again from memory, they called it ‘The Rapture’, and you’d have been raptured.
So to cover my own bases: if I’m raptured, someone please take the keyboard …
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In NZ the loonies were right into ‘The Rapture’ and that was their favourite saying—”If I’m raptured … take the wheel!”
For anyone not ‘in the know’ they genuinely believed that at the exact moment (!) their store of ‘virtue’ In God’s eyes reached a tipping point He (The Lord, Big G) was going to reach down, snatch them up and scamper hot-foot back to Heaven with them … regardless of whatever they were doing at the time. Can you imagine—
“Hey, Pilots, I’ve brung you some coffees … ooops, lonely here …”
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That always struck me as a little presumptuous, no? Especially reading scripture and what Yeshua asked of people in order to get into the “kingdom.” What makes you so sure YOU’RE going to be among those that are taken in the “rapture”. A word, by the way that does not present itself in any scripture new or old and was invented by Thomas Darby in the 1800’s. It’s all BS, start to finish and yet Christians eat it up like it came from the mouth of god himself/herself/itself!
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Hi … I’m pretty sure (about 100%) that I ain’t going to no Heaven.
Nor (phew~!) to any Hell.
However, I do see myself as fish food, hopefully to be recycled (as most of Nature is) via some gorgeous blue-eyed blonde damsel in England having brought herself a nice fish’n’chip supper.
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We tend to forget that Jesus wasn’t the only messiah at the time. There were several, probably many, claimants at the time, some self proclaimed, others claimed to be by others. Simon of Peraea, a former slave of Herod who rebelled and was killed, Judas of Galilee who led a small group rebelling against Roman taxes, Theudas, another leader of a Jewish rebellion and several others were thought to be the messiah by some back then. It’s entirely possible that Paul, seeking to draw attention and authority to himself, simply picked a “messiah” to use as the basis for his new religion, one who was conveniently dead so no one could check upon him.
Of course all of this is pure speculation. We actually have no idea who Paul was any more than we know who Jesus was. The only information we have about Paul comes from the Bible, the Acts of the Apostles and the alleged letters of Paul, and, of course, from his own followers. All of those sources are of questionable authenticity. Acts of the Apostles directly contradicts some of the things in Paul’s letters. And we know that some of the letters of Paul are forgeries and that even the “genuine” letters were probably altered by third parties before they took on their current form.
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And around and around we go … !
But, doncha’ know? The True Believers™ have all the answers. Just ask them.
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For Nan: So do I, and although I’m not a Christian ol’ God visited me in the night, bopped me on the head with a magic (I apologise, for that ‘m’ word—I can’t spell ‘miraculous’) loaf of loofah and I was instantly converted. Sadly all the other gods and goddesses were lined up behind Him and now I have umpty thousands of bumps on my head (and a grumpy Missus who couldn’t sleep because of all my dodging and weaving).
Life just ain’t fair sometimes … you ask for a miracle all your life, just one tiny little sign, and when you number comes up you get gooshed …
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And if they don’t have the answer, they make one up! Presto!
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Yes indeed Grouchy. You are reporting verifiable historical facts! Bravo Sir, bravo! 👏
But I wouldn’t necessarily call it “pure speculation,” but more often use the term/phrase plausible or highly plausible conclusions based on the exhaustive, independent, fully contextual evidence of this time-period reference. This, in my mind as well as in many scholar’s minds too experts of the Second Temple Period Messianism/Judaism, and post-70 CE until c. 300 CE… describes more accurately what we CAN KNOW about the Jewish (not Christian) Yeshua bar Yosef (Greek = Jesus). And from all of this, including the non-Canonical evidence and INDEPENDENT (vs Roman Catholic Greco-Roman sources of the New Testament) evidence… to me, it’s not a debate in the least! Jesus/Yeshua would’ve NEVER been Hellenistic or Greco-Roman in his nature, teachings, or reforms for his Sectarian Homeland Jews!
Would you agree? Partly? Disagree or partly agree, Grouchy?
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My personal opinion is that Jesus was a devout Jewish man. His audiences were made up almost entirely of Jewish people. He was preaching to fellow Jews, not to Romans or gentiles. I think he would have been horrified if he’d seen how Paul and others corrupted his teachings.
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In complete agreement with you Grouchy!
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Like the old saying, “The victors write the history”, this whole legend has been ‘worked on’ over the centuries to suit the powerful, and to institure control over the ignorant.
Best wishes, Pete.
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If he’s God his religion doesn’t matter.
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But he is Yahweh, so his…oops, sorry, His religion is the one bestowed upon him.. damn, Him by his inventors;
And who were they, Arnold?
Why, the Canaanites of course!
And that, boys and girls is the realanswer to the question, What religion was Jesus?,
so help me Yahweh.
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Yes, it’s recorded that Abram the Chaldean, Jacob the Syrian, Moses the Egyptian, Ruth the Moabitess, Rahab the harlot et al were indeed Jesus of Nazareth’s ancestors. He identifies with the likes of you and me.
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Lol!
Fictitious ancestors of a fictitious god man;
Sounds about right.
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Hah! Tricky Ark … of course ol’ Jeez, as the founder of Jeezism, was a Jeezist. The very first, in fact. (So few of us left these days …) (Firsts, not Jeezists.)
Damn. If I worshipped me, would I be an Argist or and Argite? An Argian? (This could get complicated so I’ll get a goldfish and worship that. I might take the world into a new era of piscine auricles …)*
(Before you ask, it’s ‘au’ for gold (as in pelf) and leftover bits from ‘oracles’.) (If it catches on I should be absolutely quids in!)
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I was raised Roman Catholic & I was always taught that Jesus was a Jew.
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Jesus was always referred to as a Jew (former Catholic here) but it was basically unsaid but inferred that he ‘converted’ and became a Catholic. And how convenient to have as your biographer a man who “knew” you…and once you were gone could begin spinning historic webs about virgin births in a feeding box (ouch) on a snowy winter evening in Jerusalem (in October), and oh the drama of the Census when what’s his name was hunting for the baby, and oh the drama of his life…it’s very similar to the loony story of Washington pitching a silver dollar across the Potomac…
oh, and let us not forget rolling away the rock to the tomb and (gasp) he’s gone! Or Mary conveiently ascending to heaven. Great way to remove the bodies that probably weren’t there anyway…
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I never heard (whether inferred or otherwise) that he “converted” to Catholicism. What utter nonsense. Although I can well imagine Sister Richard Marie coming up with something like that. (Anyone who said that if you clasp your hands so that your fingers are pointed upwards, your prayers are going to heaven & if you clasps your hands so that your fingers are hugging one another, your prayers are going to hell would definitely say that Jesus “converted”).
Jesus was a Jew. The Last Supper was about celebrating Passover, was it not? That whole part of the story hinges on Jerusalem being packed to the gills with Jews on pilgrimage for the Passover holiday. Christians can believe what they want (they’re going to anyway) but if Jesus actually existed, he was a Jew. Maybe a renegade Jew, but a Jew nonetheless.
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ahem. I think you misread my comments; think, tongue in cheek…
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Oh, hard to tell when it’s written & there’s no facial expressions or vocal tones.
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I agree in essence, SAQ. but Judy often does “tongue-in-cheek” comments so sometimes you have to consider the source. 😉
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I will remember this from now on.
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That’s what I was taught. No wonder the church leaders of the time were grumpy at him. With him. Wotever. Tipping over the tables and all that, must’ve started a wee riot.
“Hey, you!”
“Wot?”
“Get your foot of my hand while I’m grabbing those shekels!”
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“The pope may be French, but Jesus is English!”
I think it may very well be, that there was an actual human being behind the stories. At least the early stories, like Mark. Matt is an obvious forgery in relation to Mark. That person was most likely Jewish Nazarine (from wich status his imaginary hometown has been drawn), who taught the virtue of powerty. He was also one of those who declared the end times to be nigh. He was called the “son of god” by some other Jews that is a title used several times in the Old Testament of people who are known to be ones who kept the commandments. He may have survived an execution because the disinterrested Romans sold him to a rich follower after a formal, but extremely short exposure to the cross. That is what the alledged eyewittness accounts describe, albeit the superstitious followers interpreted the eventd accordimģ to their imaginations, like any distressed person could.
Agreed. Paul had ambitions and it shows. He may have laid the foundations for the coming religion, but I do not think, it was planned as such, or that it really manifested during his lifetime. He was the leader of a cult among illiterates and argued for growth and against just about anything the originator had said just make the cult more interresting to the biggest awailable audience.
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I’ve always had a soft spot for Marcion after he was kicked out and declared a heretic
What better way to get your own back than to ‘discover’ Paul’s epistles and hand them over to the Church. And if the Marcionites had to do a bit of editing or even a lot, wink, wink, what was the harm?
🙈🙉🙊
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Poking him in the side with lance was the icing on the cake for Him, no? Sheesh, that would really frost-his-cookies (as the Yanks say).
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Yeah, but, man, could he make a GREAT deli sandwich!!!
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Isn’t there a contradiction in terms?
A Christian is a follower of Jesus; how can he be a follower of himself?
¿?
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Of course you’re question is on-target. But in the world of Christianity, there are more oddities in what folks believe than anyone can possibly imagine.
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Jews emphatically do not accept Jesus as their Messiah; Christians do.
Doesn´t that make Christians Jewish heretics?
My apologies if this I’m asking a wrong question!
¿?
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“There’s no Messiah in here. There’s a mess all right, but no Messiah!”
Apologies to Life of Brian.
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There is a contingency of modern Jews who have something called “Jews for Jesus”, in an attempt to win him back to their side, or perhaps win them over to his…
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They are not Jews. They’re Christians. I know their rabbis wear caps, but Jews disavow them. By definition alone, they are Christians.
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This stems from the Book of Revelations where, during the end times, there’s supposed to be 144,000 “Jews for Jesus” indicating his global acceptance before he returns to save the world.
Unfortunately for those that subscribe to this particular “prophecy” I’m afraid none of it was to take place 2,000 years after Yeshua was executed. The writer of Revelation (John of Patmos) was writing about his own time, the Roman Empire and their cruel, oppressive rule over the Jews. It’s all water under the bridge HOWEVER it makes for great product for the Televangelists to sell to the blind brethren of their respective parishes! It sells like hotcakes!
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Believers can be sooo gullible.
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The biblical Jesus was born a Jew, lived life as a Jew, and died a Jew.
I doubt that the person identified in the NT ever existed.
I also doubt that anyone ever walked on water, brought dead humans back to life, cured lepers, or came back after being dead more than 3 days.
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That’s it in a nutshell, Bill. They even used the Torah as a reason to get Yeshua off the cross since it would have violated their burial laws to leave him up after sunset. How much more Jewish can he have been, literally from cradle to the grave? He went to the Temple, annually if you read John, observed Passover no matter what gospel you read, and, finally he said this:
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.”
“Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” Matthew 5:17-19
What does that make of Paul who taught EXACTLY that they no longer needed to observe the Torah? Oops!
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Right you are.
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The virgin birth could be a clue, too, as well as the sleight of hand (water into wine) at the wedding…My feeling is, there was a man named Jesus who was the fallguy for Christianity, and had little to do with it, since he was already dead.
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As I’ve heard Rabbi’s characterize it: Christians threw the dart first, then drew the bull’s eye around the dart. Yes, Jesus was a real man, thought he was the Messiah, found out he was mistaken and paid the price for his sedition under Roman law, crucifixion. Afterwards, the (various) creators of the “faith” started filling in the (phony) details, e.g., virgin birth (yeah, right), Bethlehem story, flight to Egypt, (never happened in a million years), miracles, etc. Even the tomb story and resurrection was made up out of whole “cloth” (as in bull turds) and added in as they went along. Very easy to make up a “biography” when the subject of it has been dead for decades.
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Im not even sure that he was anything more than a convenient being on an imaginary cross. Turn his anonymity into the Messiah (so who would argue), and gradually turn his “life’ into the other half of the bible. It’s also oh so convenient that the tomb was opened and no one was there. (the aha moment). and his imaginary mother was ascended to heaven, right hand of god, all that–all the key witnesses have miraculously disappeared.
And if you think about it, most of the “miracles’ performed can be explained away by sleight of hand, mass hypnosis, a Willingness to Believe, and after the fact stories. Kinda like Elvis sightings.
I’m still wondering how (according to Ken Ham) Noah managed to stuff two living dinosaurs into the ark. Im also wondering where he found them. (off topic, sorry)
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OMG, it’s EXACTLY like Elvis sightings! The propensity to sell-delude knows no boundaries; the alien abduction frenzy should be all the proof wee need for that. You can convince yourself of almost anything should the need and the urgency arise!
Keeping in mind that Paul’s letters are the OLDEST Christian writings and he doesn’t mention ANYTHING about Yeshua’s life; not the virgin birth, none of the miracles, not his trial, sermons, almost nothing at all about his life. As Bart Ehrman frequently says “You can write everything you learn about the historical Jesus on a 3 x 5 card!” 15 or so years later you have the gospel of Mark which doesn’t mention Paul or any of his writings at all, nothing. Suffice it to say there’s plenty of space there for all the mythology you’d like, just write it up and start spreading the news1
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I totally agree with you. But believing folks in today’s Christian world don’t consider these things. What comes from the pulpits of churches all over the world is all they know or want to know. So long as they’ve “accepted Jesus into their hearts,” the details are pretty much irrelevant.
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I walked on water. A sub-specialisation in the navy, fully qualified … and once when I surfaced clear of the sip some goat thought he saw a fin and shouted “Shark!” (I didn’t walk, actually, I ran). …
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🙂
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I listen to Christian radio in my truck throughout the week to hear the various preachers and what they are telling their parishioners and it is deeply troubling. Many times they completely misrepresent scripture to their own advantages and to the confusion of everyone else. I often think “He’s either lying or doesn’t know the real parable, quote or story. Either way, he shouldn’t be up there if that’s the case.
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Not unlike politicians, MANY preachers are in it for themselves. They just use Christianity to accomplish their end goals.
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Yes, just take Kenneth Copeland for instance. Net worth upwards of $750,000,000 and where do people sedning him money think it’s going? In to the prayer bank? NOT! In to his piggy bank, that’s where! How else does one that doesn’t work accumulate $750,000,000?
STOP SENDING THIS OIG YOUR HEARD EARNED MONEY! He’s as phony as Trump and is just ripping you off!
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Actually … if he’s doing that well, where can I get a franchise?
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Wow! That’s a lot of bucks, wotever con he’s working it seems to be doing well.
Well enough that I’d be tempted to buy a franchise, if he’s got around to it yet?
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Ya godda make yer buck somehow, and when all else fails … sell Jeez-arse. (Don’t knock it, do it right and you can even franchise.)
I don’t know if the white suit is mandatory but does help with the sales. No point in wearing a dress, the Cat-licks have that one covered already.
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If he even existed at all…
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Well, yes, there’s that. 🙂
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Of course He did (they do — it’s all in the God Book) … and we all know that if it’s in a book it’s as true as Noddy or Biggles and/or Captain Nemo.
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James Bond … he was my hero, and he’s in several books and movies and stuff, so He is true too!
(Not really sure about Rupert though; a talking teddy bear in a place called ‘Nutwood’ … sounds a bit biblical to me.
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Of course 😉
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Of course He did! It’s in the Good Book, right?
That means it’s THE Bible Truth — and you can’t argue with the Bible; it’s the word of the One True God, for Chrisake.
(If I’m wrong, please set me right …)
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Exist, that is. Of course He did! Sheesh … no arguments so far, but how can anyone dispute the Truth?
(You know, that stuck in my craw a bit, but I hope it illustrated my point.)
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I think there is at least a POSSIBILTY that Jesus never existed for a number of reasons: Paul is the first writer of anything about Jesus in his epistles, however, unfortunately, he fails to mention almost anything about the actual life (historical) of Jesus. He doesn’t mention a virgin birth, flight to Egypt, slaughter of the innocents, any miracles, etc. To Paul it almost seems as though Jesus is some kind of spiritual entity and not a human being at all. Years later, Mark writes a gospel – never mentions Paul or any of his ideas AT ALL – and all of a sudden we have “biographical” information on Jesus minus the real crazy stuff. Mark never mentions a virgin birth either or that he actually rose from the dead only that the tomb was empty. Did Mark get his biographical (phony as it is) from oral tradition, other written sources? If so, why does Paul not mention anything of it at all? Did he never hear of it? To me it almost seems as if there were 2 originating points – clearly at odds with each other – that began the synthesis of Christian origins that were, eventually, interwoven together. Matthew & Luke add some more details that Mark apparently doesn’t know, and John adds all the magical/miracle nonsense to it for the icing on the cake.
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You are just one of them nasty disbelieving fings my Mummy told me about. So stop thinking and start believing! (And if you can’t do that, a lobotomy might slow your rationality down a bit to give you at least an outside chance of being saved.) (Saved from wot?) Hey, don’t ask me! I’m just a wee dog, remember? Go ask a priest of some kind … ANY kind, all religions lead to the same place, no?
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RaPaR == I think you make some very good points. Especially the fact how believers (and especially apologists) tend to skip over the fact that Paul was the original writer and, as you pointed out, left out most of the “Jesus information” that’s included in modern theology. No one wants to accept the very obvious fact that Paul’s ONLY knowledge of Jesus came via a vision! Nor do they want to recognize the several years that passed before the first “gospel story” was written … and the explosion of tales and rumors that took place in the interim.
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Again I see a pattern in the Universe which can only mean that ol’ God is reading my replies and putting them further down the page than I wanted. That’s unfair! He has infinite power and reach in space and time, all I have is this wee keyboard and an utter contempt for folks who sell the non-existent (repeatedly) for Big Bucks. I’ll have to address such by name in future … thanks, God (you’ll keep).
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