Just for Trekkies

Nan Atheism, Christianity, , , ,
Courtesy of wallpapercave.com/star-trek-ships-wallpaper

One thing about visiting other blogs is that every so often someone either writes an “I just have to share this!” post … or an individual leaves a comment that literally jumps off the page at you.

Today, I came across the latter and couldn’t resist the urge to share. With the person’s permission, here is the comment left in response to Danica’s most recent post, What Is Humanism.

Humanists are equatable to Star Fleet and the Federation. Humans working together for the betterment of mankind, striving to attain personal greatness while at the same time working towards the goals of a peaceful and just society.

Religionists are equatable to the Borg. Working together around a small set of rules, conforming to the same theology and attempting to either destroy or assimilate anything that does not fit their dogmatic mold.

If you’re not a “Trekkie,” it’s doubtful you got the point of this comment.  But if you are one (as I am), then you immediately saw the (“spot-on”) comparison. 😀

98 thoughts on “Just for Trekkies”

  1. hi nan-

    Yeah, we get your comparison, but it has you on the horns of a dilemma. Religionist: small set of rules. Really, you going with that?

    You cannot uncover the depths of scripture in a thousand lifetimes, so your self described ‘set of rules’ is due to your own lack of appreciation for the history, logic, knowledge, spirituality, and yes science, and of course above all, truth, as found in the good book.

    It is, and will always be, the anvil, which has wore out EVERY hammer against it. But nice try though, and happy to be the springboard for which will inevitably follow. 😉

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        • I don’t doubt that but this is what you wrote: so your self described ‘set of rules’ . It was not MY set of rules … it was the person making the comment.

          In any case, regardless of semantics, most Christians ARE the quintessential Borgs.

          Liked by 5 people

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          • Tkx nan, but the point stands. You posted it, and I knew you agreed 100%. Which means, I am ahead of you.

            Therefore, the reading skills point is equally valid.

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          • Nan, how much does our own experience, and what we read color our perception? I think most Christians are the federation.

            I wonder if the person making this comment understands that it in and of itself reflects a dogmatic and judgmental bias? How can people in general be labeled and stuffed into a box? We are all so much more complicated and complex than this.

            I think the statement is very hurtful, and guaranteed to further divide people.

            Liked by 1 person

          • Nan, how much does our own experience, and what we read color our perception? I think most Christians are the federation.

            Personally, I think most Christians are decent people. The problem is with the group dynamics.

            I see conservative Christianity as an evil, anti-American and anti-Christian group. I don’t think most individual Christians are evil, though some of the leaders possibly are. And maybe most individual Christians try to practice “love thy neighbor”, but too many allow themselves to be persuaded to support the politics of hate.

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          • The ‘evil’ that is the Borg is elevating group identity – the collective – over individual autonomy (We -plural- are the Borg – singular). To achieve unity, the Borg becomes the hive only by submerging and destroying individual autonomy and demanding submission to the collective’s ‘greater good’. This is exactly what religion tries to achieve in the guise of virtuous submission to this ‘greater good’ and calls it ‘piety’. So the evil inherent in religion is towards this end, a matter of goal. And this is what we find religion does, demands good people carry out this task in all kinds of pernicious ways… always towards eliminating any respect for the autonomy of individuals and replacing it with the flocking mentality of joining the herd. And we see the same ‘evil’ today now with the rise of politically correct post modern group identity over and above fundamental respect for individual autonomy, individual rights, individual freedom. Elevating group identity is a pernicious philosophy even though those who support it for they presume are good reasons – the good of the Hive – appear to be concerned and caring and compassionate people. But their actions based on this presumption are the problem in the same way people who are willing to affiliate with religion, to work towards its goal in the name of love and charity and good works are the problem.

            Liked by 2 people

          • Agreed, Rebecca. In Judaism, especially the more liberal and sometimes atheistic versions, personal autonomy tends to be highly prized. From GSS data of what was the number one value among Jews in raising their children: it was thinking for one’s self. It was a comparative study and compared how both other religions and other ethnic groups answered the same questions. Jews prized this as the number one value for their children over every other group. Although I think this is true of many other religious and ethnic groups as well, especially in the US. Certainly Quakers value personal autonomy. One size fits all comments are not only prejudicial, they’re usually factually wrong!

            One of the best classes I ever took as an undergraduate was a Lord of the Rings Poli Sci course. It began like a typical literary course, but then it went through different political ideology and how they have interpreted LOTR in relation to their own ideology. One of the hardest ones to wrap our heads around was neo-fascism who also really like LOTR. All the students wanted to identify them with Sauron and the evil orcs, but it turns out they actually identify with the heroes: Frodo, etc. How? The ring keeps its meaning as a symbol of greed and power that corrupts individuals, but in a fascist’s eyes its capitalism and democracy that does this! This was eye opening to me in that it made me realize different groups, sometimes at complete opposite ends of the political, religious, ideological spectrum, can identify with the same symbol, characters, buzzwords, etc. while maintaining the same basic meaning. What shifts is how the ideology associates who has or doesn’t have those characteristics.

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          • Jewish Distinctiveness in America: a Statistical Portrait by Dr Tom W. Smith (who was the director of the General Social Survey and put the report together for the American Jewish Commitee).

            <a href="http://www.jewishdatabank.org/studies/downloadFile.cfm?FileID=2926link

            In particular:

            Jews have distinctive views on children and child rearing (Ellison, Xu, and Grayson, 2002; Waite, 2002). When asked to rank five values that children should have, Jews led non-Jews in selecting to “think for himself or herself” as the most important value, with 71 percent of Jews and 50 percent of non-Jews placing it first (Tables 22-23). As a result, almost all other values were less likely to be ranked first by Jews than by non-Jews: to work hard (Jews 13 percent; non-Jews 17 percent), obedience (Jews 6 percent; non-Jews 19 percent), helping others (Jews 9 percent; non-Jews 14 percent), and being well liked/popular (Jews 1 percent; non-Jews 1 percent). Thus, overall, Jews ranked desirable values for children as 1) thinking for oneself, 2) working hard, 3) helping others, 4) obedience, and 5) popularity, while non-Jews placed the values as 1) thinking for oneself, 2) obedience, 3) working hard, 4) helping others, and 5) popularity.

            Of all ethnic/racial groups, Jews were top in selecting thinking for oneself (by 10 percentage points over even the second highest group), lowest on obedience and helping others, and next to the lowest, above the Scandinavians, on working hard.

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          • The comparison stats you’re using here is a cultural comparison that does so on the basis of the terms ‘Jewish’ and ‘non-Jewish’. This doesn’t help us when criticizing religious Borg-like qualities. It is presented to misrepresent the religious Borg-like qualities as another kind of something else. The comparison being used in the stats about the importance of individual autonomy uses this cultural identity of being Jewish – including well know and out-spoken atheists – which is then being used by you as if it represents a religious indication to support thinking for one’s self.

            No. This is not the case. Granted, respecting individual autonomy is higher in Jewish religious populations on specific issues compared to other religious populations, but this doesn’t dispel the point about Borg-like qualities inherent in religion. It just misrepresents it on behalf of religious Jews.

            By all means, correct me if I’m wrong, but my understanding of Judaism as a religion is all about following Jewish religious law. Following. Submitting to. Agreeing to uphold. Nowhere in the Pentateuch do I find a commandment to think for one’s self before any of this. Just the opposite: Being Jewish in its religious sense is all about becoming a member of a divinely chosen tribe by maintaining a covenant with the One True God (TM). This religious understanding of Judaism – obligatory and promissory – is all about group identity over and above individual autonomy. That’s the Borg comparison. Being taught to be a part of the Jewish Hive and obeying the submissive Jewish rules that this covenant entails. Period.

            Introducing such a study to try to make ‘white’ appear to be another kind of ‘black’, ‘up’ to be properly understood as another kind of ‘down’, is post modern language. It demonstrates post modern thinking. It relies on respecting post modern ideology about group identity. And it rests on accepting group identity as more meaningful, more important, and more desirable than holding individual autonomy supreme. This is what being Borg means. And going along with it is deeply pernicious.

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          • Let’s look back at what I actually said:

            In Judaism, especially the more liberal and sometimes atheistic versions, personal autonomy tends to be highly prized.

            Did the study support this? Yep.

            From GSS data of what was the number one value among Jews in raising their children: it was thinking for one’s self.

            Did the study support this statement? Yep.

            It was a comparative study and compared how both other religions and other ethnic groups answered the same questions.

            Did I accurately represent the context of how the study represented its data? Yep.

            Most Jews don’t differentiate Jewish religion from Jewish culture like you’re doing.

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          • Right, and that’s the confusion, the ‘another kind of’ post modern thinking, post modern speech that is so pernicious, so Borg-like. You actually think it’s a counterpoint to this Borg-like comparison claiming there is a religious aspect you call atheistic Judaism when speaking about this supposed religious value regarding Judaism supporting the raising of kids to be independent thinkers.. This is the ‘other kind of’ PoMo misrepresentation; it ain’t RELIGIOUS at all! It is the cultural identity (and the related value for independent thinking) you use to counter the Borg accusation in place of the religious and then submit this study as if it backs up your counterpoint. It doesn’t. But it does demonstrate how you rationalize away the Borg-like quality of the Jewish religious identity, which was the point you were trying to counter.

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          • First off Postmodernism is the philosophical movement/stance that there is no objective truth and everything is subjective. That all truth is a social product. It’s skepticism on crack. Since I do believe there is such thing as objective truth I am not really a postmodernist.

            The religion of Judaism developed out of the culture and religion of Ancient Israel. Ancient societies (along with many small tribal societies today) don’t really have a sharp demarcation line between culture, religion, arts, science, history, etc. The historic Jewish experience of living in isolated communties (ghettos, having various laws that restricted their rights in larger society in many places, no proselytizing tradition for the most part, means that culture, religious, and social experiences became intertwined). See this article. (link)

            The simplest way to put it is cultural Jews often express their Jewish culture by celebrating the religious holidays and those central cultural values often stems from Jewish religious thought. For example, Tikkun Olam (repairing the world) is a central idea found throughout all branches of religious and non-religious Judiasm (Reconstructionist, Humanistic Judaism, and cultural Jews who don’t particularly identify with those two movement), but the idea still has its origins in Kabbalah (Jewish mysticism).

            Most Americans Jews (62%), for example, see being Jewish as mostly a matter of culture link. What is central to being Jewish and the basic ideas in Torah (as its beeen historically interpreted over the years) is the ethical imperative and working for social justice; very few would identify observing Jewish Laws as central (only 19% think that’s essential to Judaism). So basically what I’m saying is that those cultural values have their origins in religious Jewish thought, many Jews who think of it mostly as a culture still have some religious belief in that they are willing to entertain a belief in God, and for THAT reason it’s not so straightforward separating Jewish religious ideas from Jewish cultural ideas. Basically, many aspects of Jewish culture and Jewish religion have been intertwined throughout history.

            But given even Orthodox Jews don’t proselytize and the vast majority could care less what you or anyone else believe I think the Borg analogy is really stretching it for anyone being remotely intellectually honest.

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          • Great question, Nan. My original comment if you look back was to point out that I agreed with Rebecca to an extent that many Christians, Jews, Muslims, and people of other religions as well for that matter really wouldn’t recognize themselves or their ideas being associated with the Borg.

            I mentioned some facts based on studies about Jews in particular to support this point. Tildeb asked for the source. So I gave it to him. And then we went off on a long tangent.

            In terms of Star Trek, I imagine most Jews would identify with Spock.

            Liked by 2 people

          • Thanks for the reply. After looking back, I can see where some references were made to the post subject, but there was so much other stuff, that it got lost in the shuffle. (BTW, it does appear you know a fair amount about the Jews.)

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          • I see.

            So Judaism is NOT about a central aspect of post modern thinking, that group identity is NOT of primary importance to Jews, and that your interpretation of the study is to reverse its findings, that the FURTHER away from religious adherence a Jew travels, the HIGHER the respect for individual autonomy. Just avoid that little gem. Got it, ConsoledReader. This is how the accusation that religion is like the Borg and humanism like the Federation is wrong because Jews don’t proselytize like some other religions.

            Riiigggghhhhht.

            And disagreeing with you in your disagreement with the analogy has only a remote connection to intellectual honesty, you suggest.

            Seriously?

            Good grief. Talk about someone stretching a bit of cherry-picked data to then try to avoid the legitimate comparison and divert from its analogy. That’s you, CR. I have no doubt, however, that this little charade you make is really just another kind of intellectual honesty in your mind. Don’t criticize the Hive, whatever you do. Just pretend it is another kind of individual autonomous agency that respects individual rights and freedoms over and above its own group identity because you say so, and pretend there is no special covenant making this group the divinely chosen group… too trivial a point to address, I guess. Besides, there really too much respect for individual autonomy by Jews to make such Borg-like claim, donchaknow.

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          • Yes, postmodernists are interested in group identity, but not everyone interested in group identity is necessarily a postmodernist. Just as running is a type of exercise, but not all exercise is running.

            The Borg are all about everyone being assimilated into the singular group, especially outsiders, raising the point about Jews not proselytizing and not caring what religion or belief anyone else has (in general) does directly rebut that aspect. Likewise, so far I haven’t had any Orthodox Jew ever come up to me and demand I repent my bacon-eating ways, grow out my side curls, give up my atheist gentile wife, and wear tefillin wherever I go! You’ll be the first person I’ll let know if that ever happens!

            I made the claim based on what actual studies have found, direct real life experience, actual knowledge of Jewish history, actual knowledge of Jewish ideas, and common sense. But keep ranting if it’ll make you feel better!

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          • But the study didn’t do what you thought it did: use Judaism as an exception to the Borg-like aspect of RELIGION>/i>! In fact, it demonstrated the opposite. That’s what I keep trying to point out to you.

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          • In truth, Rebecca, the qualities listed could probably be applied to both sides. But from the perspective of many non-believers and deconverts, Christianity (as a whole) strongly resembles the Borg.

            Christians are taught they must follow certain rules in order to remain in the good graces of their God. Further, they are taught to assimilate (convert) those who do not “know Jesus.”

            And while the core goals may be, in theory at least, similar to the Federation, in far too many instances this is not the way Christianity presents itself.

            As a whole, Christians tend to turn up their noses at Humanists, but in many ways their goals are far more oriented to the betterment of mankind (humankind) and a peaceful and just society.

            Liked by 3 people

          • @ Rebecca.

            While the Federation might not be Utopia 101 , unlike your /em> religion, and your god, it doesn’t systematically try to exterminate people for disagreeing with what it considers to be the best ”path” for all, which in anyone’s book is only logical.

            Although they do have one thing in common ….

            ”Beam me up , Dad, I’m done here!”

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          • Well let’s see, the context of this opinion is knowing that while she did not write the ‘comment’ in question, she agrees completely with it, as I pointed out earlier’ so, if you would have paid attention, you would have known this, and not asked a dumb question. 😉

            Then there is this. ‘In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth…….’

            Comprehend that.

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          • Well even if she agrees with the analogy it’s not clear to me that she misunderstood what the original person was trying to convey so I’m a little perplexed about what this has to do with reading comprehension or how this demonstrates you have good reading comprehension. How do you know it’s not the Dunning-Kruger effect?

            Also I am pretty sure it’s supposed to be: berosheet bara elohim eit hashamyim v’eit haaretz.

            Liked by 1 person

          • Not to be an offender for a word, but I only said I have ‘halfway decent reading etc…………………’

            Geez. Enough already.

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      • Many a fool will find the utter self contempt when he discovers that Abraham’s shoelaces cannot be found with a shovel.

        As I said to others, people mistakenly look for love in all the wrong places.

        But as to you, what you consider ambiguity is merely your own lack of honesty in facing truth. Period.

        God’s word is the anvil which has wore out EVERHY singer hammer. But keep your trek fantasies.

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    • What depths of logic, science and knowlege are ‘uncovered’ in ancient scriptures? How to punish your slave? How to determine if your daughter is chaste by examining her bed linens? How to cleanse your home of mold by sprinkling it with dove’s blood? How to create speckled and striped flocks by mating them in front of striped branches? How to carry out genocidal massacres? The Sin Theory of disease? God’s ‘storehouses’ of snow and hail?

      And why didn’t the dively inspired author of Ecclesiastes 11:5 foresee the answer provided by modern embryology when he wrote: “Thou knowest not … how the bones do grow in the womb of her that is with child.”?

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  2. CS says, “Blah, blah, blah…” The translation: “We are the Borg. Your biological and technological distinctiveness will be added to our own. Resistance is futile.”

    Yup. Sounds about right.

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      • @s-rael

        Tks for confirming the age old battle between good and evil, truth from lies, fact from fiction.

        Many ‘gods’ who collectively can’t count to three if you gave them a two number head start……..nor tie their shoes if they had feet.

        One God. Period. The fantasies of space travel and the admiration of your ‘gods’ has long been the delusion of atheists.

        Would you like to try Sports for 200? because you lost this game. 😉

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        • Here’s your invite to the 1 Kings 18 alter challenge. You, me, two steaks and two barbeques. I’ll light mine with regular firestarters. You’ll light yours by praying for fire. Are you up for it?

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          • Yes. We already know that your god’s a no-show in real life. But a character from another sci-fi franchise finds your lack of faith . . . disturbing.

            Liked by 1 person

          • That’s nice ron. Maybe you and a few of your godless friends can come up with a better design for the human body. One that ignores its Maker.

            Congratulations, but no cigars. You can’t rid your mind of the obvious, courtesy of He who did the wiring.

            Your ignorance is enough proof that His word is good. Cya.

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          • A better design for the human body? Well for starters, I’d completely seperate the windpipe from the esophagus to avoid accidental death by choking. That’s an example of poor design — dont you think?

            Liked by 1 person

          • Why then don’t you and your atheist friends go into the lab and redesign the body.

            And oh btw, you are allowed to use nothing. No hands. No brain. Do you now understand how stupid you appear?

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          • I’m too old to start a new career. But there is a burgeoning field of medical professionals dedicated to fixing all the design flaws left by your heavenly maker.

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          • In the ultimate card game, you have just folded because you have been thoroughly defeated.

            At least you admit that you do not even have as much as fingers to hold, let alone a hand.

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    • Yes, that’s what it sounds like to me too. “You can have no independent thoughts of your own, only the thoughts that we put in your head. Individuality is irrelevant. You will exist to service … us.”

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  3. that is actually a very good analogy. I do have a question though…how do you manage to attract so many snarky and dogmatically argumentative people to your blog? On both sides of the religion issue? I am jealous!

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    • Beats me! But my guesses are …

      When it comes to CS, I think he’s a frustrated poet and sort of follows believers around so he can display his “talents.”

      On the other side? I think some people just enjoy pushing buttons. Also they like trying to put believers in a corner where their only way out is past the antagonist.

      Not sure it’s something to be jealous of … 😉

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    • @ Suze

      I reckon you’ll find the deconverts were simply fed up to the back teeth with all the BS they had to put up with over the years, and suddenly after finally shrugging it off for once and for all, here they are facing the same crap all over again from so many pious, bloody do-gooders, like Colourstorm, who simply want to slag them off and shame them into reconverting.

      I am sure there are times it must feel like being right back in the pews again!

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        • Sorry carm, godlessness loses every time.

          Hey, but maybe in your fictional world of star trek, you can find solace in HOW blood crawled out of a rock and into a human body that evolved from a pile of doo, poo, or monkey glue.

          Enjoy your Roddenberry version of Atheism Fantasy /island.

          I much prefer reality.

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          • I much prefer reality. Reality like the invisible guy that lives in the sky above the flat earth and only “speaks’ to you through letters on a page? You mean that reality?

            Liked by 3 people

          • Stop embarrassing yourself on your blog nan. It is YOU who has that incredible FAITH thinking earth spins at an absurd speed of 18 miles per second, and orbits at an even more preposterous 67,000 mph.

            So don’t talk to me about your ‘magic.’ But boy oh boy, man oh man, do you have strong faith…….having not seen, nor experienced firsthand the earth moving as much as one inch.

            Now a word of humorous prophecy: You and yours will mock this comment, ignore what stares you in the face, yet somehow call me delusional for putting in front of your face exact science.

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          • This post is about trekkies carm. Either way you are lost in space. But keep klinggin on to the delusions of atheism, which you pursue at warp speed where you can never touch down to reality.

            Liked by 1 person

  6. To any newcomers to this blog … don’t mind the golden-maned avatar. He’s obviously deluded, but we put up with him because he’s so humorous. Although there is a limit …

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  7. Oh boy, I need to startrekeducate myself. Can’t post a single poignant comparison or witty comment, which is killing me because I’m so sure there is an awesome one just waiting to be mentioned. Sigh.

    Liked by 2 people

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  8. That is a great analogy.

    I’m not a die hard Trekkie, but have pretty much seen them all I think. I actually enjoy watching the series reruns/movies when I get a chance.

    I see your crank is…well…cranky 🙂

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  9. Just in these comments we’ve seen religionists try to first destroy the idea and then assimilate it as if it were their own. Hilarious justification for the analogy.

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  12. It’s an interesting comparison.

    My disagreement with it: Instead of “the” Borg, religions are more like hundreds of minor Borgs, each at odds with one another. Everyone I work with is a “Christian”, yet they argue all the time over dogma and “what the Bible really meant”. Imagine if you threw a Muslim, a Hindu, and a Buddhist into the mix. And another representative of every other religion. Some of these people go to the *same church* and can’t agree on stuff.

    They would be entirely more effective if they all agreed on one standardized list of rules.

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    • They would be entirely more effective if they all agreed on one standardized list of rules.

      Oh, but that would be way too easy! Besides us human beings (you know, the ones that ColorStorm’s god made?) just don’t seem to have the temperament to agree on exactly what “God” wants. (Obviously a flaw on “God’s” part.)

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      • It all had to do with fruit, I seem to recall, which led to sin: Adam seemed content with an apple but Eve seemed much more interested in a banana and this is where all the problems began!
        See? All the woman’s fault!

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  13. Interesting. I always viewed the Borg as a metaphor for the dehumanization of people by corporate America, the regeneration chambers being cubicles. You’re just a number, individuality is irrelevant.

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    • Hi Patrick! Thanks for stopping by! Your perspective of the Borg is a common one … and definitely fits. I know when I was still in the corporate world, I frequently felt this way. But as you can see from the post, it works in other areas of life as well. 🙂

      Liked by 1 person

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