Courtesy of stockvault.net
Many Christians respond to questions about their faith with the above phrase. For them, it is the ultimate answer … the end-all, be-all response.
But for those who do not believe in “God,” it carries no weight.
Other Christians use “Scripture” to defend their faith.
But for those who do not believe in the sacredness of the bible, the words hold no meaning.
Numerous Christians will “testify” of miraculous changes in their life to validate their belief.
But for those who place no weight in personal experiences, these testimonies are worthless.
Some Christians will point to the universe and claim it all bespeaks of a “Grand Creator.”
But for those who feel science offers a more valid explanation, this claim is null.
****************
So I’d like to ask this question of my Christian followers … why? Why do you, as a dedicated, “born-again” believer continue to peddle your goods to non-believers?
Do you, in your heart of hearts, truly believe something you say or write will change a life? And if so, why?
Nan's Notebook 
I love the post and the question it asks. I have often wondered if church leaders try to bring more followers into their religion for the increase in the money collected or the increase in people they have power over? Is it financial or egotistic? I look forward to reading the comments you get. Be well. Hugs
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“Is it financial or egotistic?”
Simple answer… yes.
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Scottie,
I have volunteered to work with the Saint Vincent de Paul Society.
We go out and help poor people.
Poor people are poor because they don’t have any money.
We give them some.
It helps.
Also, if the Christian doesn’t like how the church authorities are spending church funds, they can stop donating or quit altogether.
It’s called freedom of religion.
You people are so in love with the IRS’s power to extort money from hard working people that religious organizations that gain funds through charity just freak you out.
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Christians have been peddling their wares for the last 2000 years…
…and…
…SHAZZAM!!!
… Western Civilization…
…the greatest, most prosperous, most just, most technically advanced civilization in human history!
Even atheists are welcome!
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This is a very generalized comment about Christianity, SOM.
What I’m asking is why do YOU continue to peddle Christianity to non-believers? Do you truly believe something you say or write will change a life?
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After all, that is the goal of Christianity, is it not? To help others “find God”?
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Nan,
The ancients (Greeks, Romans, Hebrews, Buddhists) understood that there was something hinky about human nature.
Christian theology explains and illustrates that hinkiness.
Baptism is the sacrament whereby God heals the hinkiness in human nature.
If enough people get baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, one result will be world peace not to mention the benefits rendered to the individual.
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Nan,
At one time the entire world was non-believers.
The first Christians went out into the Greco-Roman hinterland and preached the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Less that 400 years later Christianity was the coin of the realm have replaced Greco-Roman paganism.
It was the Church that kept Europe from completely collapsing during the Middle Ages having become one of the most powerful institutions on Earth.
And upon that foundation Western Civilization emerged.
My comment may have seemed general because it had to be.
That is because Christianity spread throughout Europe and the Americas in a very general and universal way.
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SOM I would argue that the around 1400 AD the West was really not much more advanced than the pre Christian civilisation of Rome and Greece. The West really took off in the enlightenment when the superstition of Christianity was put aside and rational and scientific thought started to dominate.
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Peter,
Modern science didn’t happen all by itself any more than did the Enlightenment.
Both have the Christian Middle Ages as their foundation.
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Look I don’t see Christianity as totally backward, the first universities were set up by the Church. THe scholastic movement of Thomas Aquinas and his kin could perhaps be seen as a forerunner. But and it is a big but, the pace of science only really moved forward at any pace when the influence of the church on society waned.
Some of the great thinkers and scientists were clearly religious. I think of Isaac Newton, Michael Faraday and even Jonathan Edwards, who tried to show the folk of his time that Christianity and science could be compatible. But again in the main the Christianity was negative for science:
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Might as well say that dogs have fleas, therefore cats climb trees. Your conclusion is disconnected from your premise.
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Shell,
My conclusion is simply what is being taught in grad schools all over the West, at least those grad schools who allow students to read the literature from primary sources and modern historical finding.
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Care to provide some examples or would you rather continue living in the land of MSU?
Making Shit Up.
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@shelldigger
“As the Church assumed leadership, activity in the fields of medicine, technology, science, education, history, art and commerce all but collapsed. Europe entered the Dark Ages.”
Helen Ellerbe
The Ellerbe quote that Peter provided seems questionable. It implies the church caused the collapse in these fields rather than the various Germanic invasions destroying what was already left of the Roman Empire and the long societal rebuild that followed.
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Hi SoM,
Please know that this reply regarding your “Western Civilization” comment is with respect…
I agree with Nan that your comment is very general and relative — one person’s or nation’s definition of great, prosperous, “just”, and technically advanced can be (and often is) different, perhaps very different than another. Not all “successes” can be defined in black-n-white as “valuable” or flops because it is a matter of perception, perspective, and context of the observer. Besides, much of Western Civilization’s advances or progress (and the world for that matter) can be attributed to non-Christians. Stephen Hawking, Alan Turing, Rosalind Franklin, Neil DeGrasse Tyson, Alfred Kinsey, Andrei Sakharov, and Thomas Edison to name just seven. Western Civilization would most definitely been different had these iconic figures not been allowed to contribute from outside the box. Therefore, advances, prosperity, justice, greatness, etc, are not exclusive to any one group of persons. To think so would be ridiculously egocentric.
Best regards SoM. 🙂
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Professor,
There have, are and will always be, smart and brilliant people all over the world.
It is only in Christian Western Civilization that the scientific method, free market economics and the idea of authentic human rights took hold and flourished.
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SoM,
Though part of what you are stating is indeed true, and well-known, my primary point still stands:
“…advances, prosperity, justice, greatness, etc, are not exclusive to any one group of persons. To think so would be ridiculously egocentric.”
Again, Western Civilization, let alone Xian, does not own exclusive rights to success and flourishment. I and I’m sure many non-Xians here would be more than happy to list examples of non-Xian progress — and then by default many religious and non-religious atrocities too — IF it would be productive for all of us and not waste participant’s valuable time. Once again see, it is a matter of context, perspective, and perception of the observer. 🙂
Thanks SoM for your reply. Best regards.
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Professor,
The truth about Western Civilization is not egocentric.
Modern science only developed in the Christian West.
Civil rights only developed in the Christian West.
The individual as sovereign king of his own life and property only happened in the Christian West.
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Because they’re commanded to in the Bible and if you believed that the news/information you had could prevent someone from suffering an eternity of torment, wouldn’t you want to convince as many people as possible that what you had to say was true?
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Godless,
Yours is a false statement, a lie in fact.
Jesus Christ preached salvation, not damnation.
Idiots claiming to be Christians who preach otherwise are, well, idiots.
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I can’t answer from the other side of the fence. But I have seen x-ians who thought that converting someone to their faith was as good as saving their lives. If I’m not misaken preachers often preach to this effect and encourage followers to go forth and convert.
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Oh, what Godless Cranium said 🙂
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Shell,
That is correct.
That is because the last thing Jesus said before he ascended into heaven was to make Christians of all nations.
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So, when Godless Cranium says the same thing it is a lie?
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Dominionist ethos:
Because god is the “ultimate authority” I don’t have to think, just obey. I don’t have to accept responsibility for my odious views because it’s out of my hands. God said it, I didn’t. I don’t have to be a caring person to those around me, only work to insure compliance from others to my Bronze age death cult dogmas.
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Persede,
It is precisely because God is the “ultimate authority” that human beings are liberated to think clearly.
Without an object source of truth, all is merely personal opinion.
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SOM:
I see your ideas about what subjectivity and objectivity are come from the same source as your ideas about human history and the church. It’s a good thing they don’t have a fact checker at the airport, or you’d never get out of town.
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Perse,
My “ideas” are only what I learned during my stay university level education institutions.
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Are we having a ‘Sheepskin” moment SOM?
You should be familiar with citations then. You should use them to buttress your wildly erroneous claims.
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I think their motives for proselytizing is far more complex than what GC suggested, though I agree that’s part of it.
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Are you allowing non-Xians to comment Nan even though you don’t explicitly state it is okay? I hope so. If not Nan, you are more than welcome to delete my comment. 🙂
I found THIS question to be most intriguing…
Why? Because objectively speaking — i.e. accumulating and evaluating all known recorded individual testimonies of miracles/parnormal activity — can also be compared to a Placebo Effect. The results are remarkably similar and reveal much about the human brain’s capacity to “create” as well as destroy. Authors of fiction are a prime quite common example of creation or fantastic imagination. Furthermore, no two “miraculous experiences” are exactly identical, further implying that a speculative “divine being(s)” does/do not interact with humans in any one single M.O. This invalidates any “one” bible/source, or “one way” (John 14:6), while validating infinite, highly unique, perpetual pluralism.
That is my little two-cents Nan. Thanks! ❤
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Of course non-Christians may comment! In fact, from past postings where I’ve invited Christians to participate, few do — which I find a little disappointing as I would really like to get their feedback. (Of course there are a couple of exceptions … I don’t think I need to name names … who tend to preach rather than discuss.)
Your point is well made, Professor. Yet for all the “scientific” reasoning behind it, many (most?) Christians will reject this approach because they know what their god has done in their life. They can feel it. IOW, the senses become a much more reliable form of validation.
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True Nan.
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Oh, I see. You are digging deeper than I realized.
With that in mind I will throw this out there. The religious are kind of a hive mind species. It makes them feel a great sense of accomplishment to have drawn in another drone. Plus they get to gloat amonst their drone friends, and are briefly elevated to hero status. Tribal society with perks.
You mention that they have religious experiences (which are dopamine highs) That feeling is addictive, they enjoy it and want to “turn on” their friends. Which brings us back to the paragraph directly above this one.
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SOM said: “Modern science only developed in the Christian West.
Civil rights only developed in the Christian West.”
Where exactly is the “Christian West?” I’d be loathe to credit a religion for progress, but if I had to, I’d have to credit Islam [pre 7th century], not Christianity. Muslims were interested in astronomy, mathematics, chemistry, and the other sciences, and they had a very clear and firm understanding of the correspondences among geometry, mathematics, and astronomy.
Muslims invented the symbol for zero (The word “cipher” comes from Arabic sifr), and they organized the numbers into the decimal system – base 10. Additionally, they invented the symbol to express an unknown quantity, i.e. variables like x.
We can thank them for algebra, in fact, Al-Khawarizmi’s work, in Latin translation, brought the Arabic numerals along with the mathematics to Europe, through Spain.
Ancient Han Chinese scientists, engineers, astronomers, philosophers, mathematicians and medical doctors made significant innovations, scientific discoveries and technological advances in science, technology, engineering, medicine, military technology, mathematics, geology and astronomy.
Among the earliest inventions were the abacus, the “shadow clock,” and the first items such as Kongming lanterns. The Four Great Inventions: the compass, gunpowder, papermaking, and printing, were among the most important technological advances, only known to Europe by the end of the Middle Ages 1000 years later.
A more accurate way to describe scientific progress would be that it was divergent, not linear, occurring in many cultures and different geographical locations, and that none of it was solely reliant on christianity as a means of support.
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Bravo!
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persedeplume well said Sir! Love it. Hugs
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Scottie,
If you had a brain in your head that had at least a 2nd grade education, you’d realize that everything Prese said is complete leftist propaganda.
You people are so crazy with hate that you’d rather feed your hatred on complete gibberish than to go out and get yourself educated.
I didn’t make any of this stuff up.
Everything I say is part of the historical record of Christian Western Civilization.
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Unfortunately Islam’s pro science phase although celebrated on some shows like COSMOS was only very limited and in the long term Islam has also been anti science.
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Very true. They got out of sorts in the 7th cent. Got with the “off with their hands and heads” kick. 🙂
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Peter,
Science failed in all other cultures except Christian Western Civilization because it, like religion were simply tools of statecraft used by the tyrant in power.
The stranglehold of tyrants on science and religion was finally, and only, broken in Christian Western Civilization.
The United States of America with its miraculous break from England in the 18th century became the pinnacle human social, economic and political development.
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Prese,
The Muslims, like every other civilization in human history (other than Christian Western Civilization), never progressed past the slave, wife beating, and the beast of burden.
You mistakenly think my claim about the exceptional quality of Christian Western Civilization excludes non-Western contributions.
It precisely the inclusivity of Christian Western Civilization to take advantage of goods found globally that powered its rise to such heights.
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I suppose while I’m filling in the gaps in SOM’s “university education” I should also mention the inspirations for civil rights and the theory of “laws for the people” came from Hammurabi and similar sources that all pre date christianity by a good bit.
“Hammurabi’s dictates are often cited as the oldest written laws on record, but they were predated by at least two other ancient codes of conduct from the Middle East. The earliest, created by the Sumerian ruler Ur-Nammu of the city of Ur, dates all the way back to the 21st century B.C., and evidence also shows that the Sumerian Code of Lipit-Ishtar of Isin was drawn up nearly two centuries before Hammurabi came to power. These earlier codes both bear a striking resemblance to Hammurabi’s commands in their style and content, suggesting they may have influenced one another or perhaps even derived from a similar source.”
“quote: https://goo.gl/mFLg4t “
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Perse,
Your being brainwashed to believe the nonsense you think is history has nothing to do with my actual, continual education in the history and politics of Western Civilization.
You are a simpleton who never questioned anything you were told simply because you are full of hatred.
You are probably one of those idiots who still believes in Global Warming and ObamaCare.
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SOM, disagreeing with others is one thing. You have total rights to do so. But to insult their intelligence (“You are a simpleton”; “If you had a brain in your head that had at least a 2nd grade education”) and make negative assumptions about my blog visitors (“You people are so crazy with hate”) is not acceptable.
For the most part, you have simply disagreed with others … and I would never censor anyone for this. But when you start attacking a person’s character, you are treading on thin ice.
Please read my Blog Rules.
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Hmmm I may be a simpleton. I just know that my life has been changed. I believe God has my best interests in mind. Life is wonderful when it’s full of hope. I’ve managed somehow to live through many things in my lifetime – but somehow I still have hope. That’s why I tell others about my faith. Yeah, I’m pretty simple I guess.
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Hello Lea! Thank you for stopping by and leaving a comment.
You are not a “simpleton.” You have chosen to believe a supernatural being has changed your life and your Book of Choice has instructed you to share this experience with others.
But the question I would like answered is this: Do you truly believe something you say or write will change someone else’s life? Wouldn’t you agree that change must come from within? Words (testimonies) simply do not carry the weight Christians would like to believe they do. Far too often, believers fail to understand the object of their “preaching” is perfectly content where they are in life and, if anything, the continual push to “accept Jesus/God” creates resentment and ill will rather than submission.
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Thanks for the reply. I think the spoken/written word has power (as we have seen during this crazy election season, wow). Words alone apart from true experience on the part of the speaker/author are lifeless, powerless to help bring any change. How words help can bring about a change of mind and heart is a delicate balance of sincerity as well as a life lived in line with the love we hope to communicate. Then, it’s simply hoping the words have touched the hearts of people in areas they need. Besides, the results aren’t up to me so I can relax… I have enjoyed reading your posts and your thoughtful questions.
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Nan,
Submission is a perfect word choice here as being a Christian involves submission to God.
This includes submitting to God regarding the topic being discussed and carrying out what is known to Christians as the great commission:
Luke 24:47 and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations
Matthew 28:19-20 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.
Mark 16:15-16 And he said to them, “Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
Given the second part of the quote from Mark, Christians should realize that not everyone can be reached.
This next part is controversial even among Christians and is an area of theology that can distinguish between church denominations:
John 12:37-40 “Lord, who has believed what he heard from us, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said, ” He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them. ”
There are other instances of God hardening the heart of people so that they cannot believe, and the “continual push to “accept Jesus/God” creates resentment and ill will rather than submission”. The Christian can not know who will or will not be receptive nor can they know the specifics of why or why not a person is receptive (meaning why God has hardened their heart, not the reasons that person may give for not believing) beyond the belief that it is ultimately for God’s glory. Regardless of effectiveness, they are still called upon to carry out the great commission.
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Reblogged this on The Recovering Know It All and commented:
Reblogged for a Someone who asks me why I post as I do. Enjoy. -kia
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I came across your blog after seeing you had commented on another. I read several of yours but am attaching a comment only to this one. After reading a few I expect to meet you in hell (that’s a joke) but have found them very interesting. If you don’t object I am going to start following your blog.
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Thank you for stopping by and for leaving a comment. I hope you’ll become a regular so we won’t be strangers in hell. 😂
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Well Nan, I have spent some time reading all the comments… I must say, may of the responses have information way over my simple mind…
To answer your question posed to us “born again” Christians…we share our faith for two reasons… asid451 did an excellent job listing the scripture from the Bible explaining the first reason, where Jesus Himself commanded us to share the gospel to the all of those in need…
Secondly, we share our faith because we have compassion on those who don’t yet know the Lord as their personal Savior…
Do we expect to change any of your minds ?? Absolutely not !! Being graced by God with salvation is totally God’s work… But God does use His inerrant Word, to share the gospel of Christ… And He does use His faithful Spirit filled children to share their faith, and the gospel message… It is God’s Word that will change lives…
Hebrews 4:12… For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account. (NKJV)
Nan, before you tell me I am preaching to you…I must tell you that I consider my comments as sharing my life experiences, and God’s Word, in hope that God will drawn anyone of your group of non-believers in (John 6:44)… With man, it is impossible to change your thoughts about God, and the reality that He does exist… But with God ALL things are possible !!
Matthew 19:26… But Jesus looked at them and said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” (NKJV)
So I will continue to share my faith and God’s Word with anyone in need of being set free from Satan’s chains of bondage… My prayer for all of you every day, is that God will do what has yet to be accomplished in the the lives of anyone who hasn’t yet been filled with the Holy Spirit…to be able to experience what I know to be truth that will set you free…
John 8:31-32… Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” (NKJV)
Have a great day !!
bruce
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Bruce you know me. I have always been fair with you. So now I reach out to you in that same sense of fairness. I will agree to talk with you about your comment, except the parts involving biblical verses. I look forward to engaging in you about real life. I will make you this deal, you don’t try to use biblical verses as your foundation and motivation, and I won’t try to show you how those similar verses are in the stories of Gilgamesh, or of the hinduism faith, or the Pentateuch… because these things all have the same as the bible in most respects, and you could have Nan, or Peter, or Ark, or so many explain all that to you. Far better than I! But if you want to talk to me it has to be on life. Yours, mine, and I will even acknowledge that you got a huge burst of feeling that let you stop the thing you felt bad about doing, ….even though Victoria has explained that whole mind releasing the chemicals thing.
The question is why do you try to push your faith on people who who do not ask it. If you wish I will talk to you here, or even on my blog, I will start a post for you to have your say. But remember no bible verses. And I won’t mention all those ones that came before your gods words. Hugs
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Why do non-believers to peddle their goods to believers? It works both ways. Such broad brush strokes here. If we’re doing it right, Christians intend, at least, to share love. What are non-believers sharing?
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Hello amazingtangledgrace. I would say……what goods are you talking about? I never got goods to peddle? Do they cost extra? Oh sure just being an atheist isn’t enough , the pets of the elites get goodies. Hey Nan, where do I go to register a complain on not being one of the in people?
OK sorry that was bad of me and you did not deserve that. I could tell you I have had a bad day but that also is not your fault. I just thought it was funny.
We don’t peddle. We do try to answer. And I use the we loosely as we don’t have a union, we don’t have a creed, a set of doctrines, or even a membership list last I knew.
I do try to answer people honestly and sometimes with humor if it is needed. I try to show where a person may have taken their religion from its proper place to a place it should ever be, such as the government , laws, peoples lives who don’t want it, and anyone under the age of reason. If a theist tries to tell me about their right to push their god or tries to convince me their god is real then I try my best to show the errors of both things.
I will tell you if you listen to the people here you can not help but be impressed. These people know their stuff in ways so deep I can not imagine it. A lot of them have been deeply hurt by churches and religions. I admire how they can talk of that and share with others. I know how very hard it is to talk about abuse. They have earned my respect many times over.
Have fun, be well. Hugs
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I was just asking the same question that was posed to believers, and I did it respectfully.
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I am sorry if you felt I was disrespecting you. I was not. I was simply saying that we are a diverse group who simply do not have a belief in a deity or god. I apologize if I hurt your feelings or offended you with my humor. Hugs
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My feelings weren’t hurt. 🙂
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I was telling the truth, as far as I know neither myself nor my friends “peddle goods” to anyone. Hugs
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I was simply turning around the question posed by the blogger by using the blogger’s own words. Oh and yes, goods are indeed being peddled here as well. This blog post was all about perceptions of non-believers toward believers. I’m just turning the dialogue around.
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But that is where you make a mistake. It doesn’t work if you turn it around. There is no reverse image here. Religious people spread their religion. They are given the command to go and tell others about their lord. They press for their “right” to push their religious beliefs into government, and public schools. Religious denominations argue against known science and settled results. I could go on but you get the idea. On the other side you have those who have not been convinced there’s a god. No goods, no going door to door saying hey do you want to leave a church? There is no formal atheist revivals. I have never been in an airport and had someone want to talk to me about the not personal relationship they don’t have with an nonexistent god. See the difference? Hugs
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I’m a Christian, and I haven’t done any of these things. But it’s time I take my leave. You have a good evening. Thank you for sharing your thoughts with me.
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Good night. Be well. Hugs
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