At the Godless Cranium blog, there has been a rather lengthy (and sometimes intense) discussion related to a post entitled “The Devil’s Ministry.” As is often the case, participants have meandered somewhat away from the original topic (i.e., the devil). One such sideline has been about the existence of the Christian God. (Funny, how this topic comes up so frequently when anything related to religion is discussed.)
A particular participant, who goes by the moniker “Silence of Mind,” recently made this comment:
“The existence of God can be reasoned out logically or you can partake of the various modern scientific proofs that demonstrate beyond doubt that God exists.”
Such thinking is not limited to this individual. Many believers throughout the blogo
sphere have made similar statements. But is such an assertion valid? Can a person truly “reason out logically” the existence of God? And what “various modern scientific proofs” have been formulated to demonstrate this existence?
From my experiences online, I know some believers will say a person cannot recognize the true existence of God unless their lives have been changed by Jesus and they have the “Holy Spirit.” But if this were true, how did these individuals arrive at this belief? Doesn’t one have to have indication something exists before they can believe in it?
I already know how most of my atheist followers would answer these questions so I would like to hear from those who have taken on the designation of “Christian.” However, anyone reading this is invited to offer their thoughts.
Nan's Notebook 
To rationalize the belief that SoM postulated one simply has to begin with a presuppositional world view regarding the god Yahweh: God exists because ….
Using a neutral starting point and simply follow evidence and one will always draw a blank.
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Oh, gosh, not SOM again, The Master of Illogic.
What I want to know about “The Devil” is why God does not do away with it? Since “He” does not, “He” must approve of everything that the Devil does. Certainly He cannot be incapable of eliminating the Devil, since He created Him in the first place.
And the whole business about evil must be allowed to exist in order to give us free will is bushwah. There are many people who would not do anything evil because it is repugnant. Why could God not make us all like that. We don’t do evil things because we choose not to. Free will to do anything we choose without evil. Since some people are made to choose not to do evil, could we all not have been that way?
Such are the stupid arguments we get in trying to defend the indefensible. And if you decide to engage SOM, do not say you were not warned. There is nothing “there” there.
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Steve,
God doesn’t make everyone like you for obvious reasons, one of which is I like being me.
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Steve, I thought the same as you about SOM when I started reading Nan’s post.
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“Such thinking is not limited to this individual. Many believers throughout the blogosphere have made similar statements.”
if there were certain evidence of Gods existence, you wouldn’t need faith.
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True ‘dat! 🙂
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Godless,
I’ve never seen you, but I know that you exist.
Please be gentle and while you’re at it, don’t ask me to have faith in you.
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One blogger, ColorStorm continually makes this claim arguing that creation is evidence enough.
From time to time some of us have responded that even if we accepted that argument, which we don’t, then why would that ‘God’ necessarily be the Christian God? The errors in the Bible are enough to raise very serious doubts about divine inspiration (something I have concluded applies to all the other known religions also).
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BAAM Godless Cranium! (loud mic drop!) 😉
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Using reason, logic and the scientific method, it is very easy to see the there is no God but Allah, and Mohammad is His prophet. Yes, there are those who’ll disagree with this, but they are people who are unfamiliar with true science and a realistic use of logic.
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You provocateur, I think your humour is lost on our Christian friends.
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It is, but that’s because they are unable to use reason and science to see the truth in what I say. The christian is controlled by their amygdala and their basest instinct to fight rather than to see truth. SOM is a perfect example of this. His emotion rules his logic; thus, he is unable to see that Allah, and not Jesus, is the only God that has, or ever will exist. Reason, logic, science, and common sense tell us this is true. That some don’t believe it, well, that means the bowels of Hell burning the souls of infidels, like SOM, will never be empty. May Allah bless you with the wisdom to see that He is the only God and your only path to not burn forever in Hell. $Amen$
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So we have proof that someone with the moniker “Godless Cranium” has a computer and is capable of using it, as evidenced by his post.
So the dog must have sent SOM an e-mail or responded to his brilliant logic online? Therefore the dog exists! No arguing with that, nosiree…
I suppose we all better get on board then, with that irrefutable ignorance. Logic like that makes my head hurt. 😦
I am afraid I am not the x-ian you were looking for Nan. No Jedi trick needed 🙂
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Speaking as an ex-Christian, I am familiar with the arguments from those days. I would see them broadly as:
– Creation;
– Answered prayer;
– Fulfilled Bible prophecy;
– Personal Spiritual experiences.
In each case anecdotal evidence can be supplied that on the surface looks compelling. But having looked at these issues from both sides of the fence I realise that it is very hard for anyone to objective in considering evidence. When I re-looked at these issues after leaving faith I concluded that the evidence was not so compelling.
As an example the prophecies about Jesus in the OT are quite persuasive to many earnest Christians. On the surface they seem amazingly prescient. As a Christian it never occurred to me to consider the possibility that the Gospel accounts were written deliberately to read as fulfilled prophecy (i.e. the stores were about Jesus were largely made up).
I also for a long time thought Christian spiritual experiences were quite unique and were a strong form of evidence for the truth of Christianity. I recall being quite shaken when still a Christian I found that people of other faiths reported similar experiences.
Answered prayer, well, what I can say, my mother a devout believer suffered cancer for 10 years before dying. No answered prayer there, but the believer always overlooks these situations and focuses instead on the lucky coincidences.
Creation is to some extent the most compelling argument, but even then if the world was designed for human life, God went about arranging it in a pretty strange way given all the life forms that came before hand and the various mass extinction events. Seems far more likely humanity just got lucky. Why would God spend 13 billion years getting the universe ready and 4 billion years geeting earth ready for a couple of thousand years of humanity? Likewise why would God create billions upon billions of stars if humanity on earth was special. I mean to say Jesus was the only Son, so would not appear to be applicable for aliens?
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If the gospels were written to appear to fulfill prophecy, but were actually false, then why were the authors and their disciples willing to die defending them?
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Individuals who belong to the Islamic religion strap on bombs and blow themselves up all the time for their beliefs.
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Good point. But here, I am refering to the authors of the gospels. If they were lying what could possibly motivate a willingness to defend their lies even to death?
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I knew what you were referring to. But my point is just because a person is willing to die for their belief does not make the belief true. Also, you need to remember that Christians believe they will “pass on” to another life so to them, death is transitory.
BTW, I don’t think the gospel authors were intentionally lying. They believed what they were writing. However, over 2,000 years have passed and many of their “beliefs” have since proven false.
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I do believe in God. However, I do not consider myself a Christian. I I do not tend church on a daily basis. I do not fear God’s wrath if I don’t pray every night or take communion every day. As I got older, I realize what a contradiction the Catholic religion is. That’s what I grew up believing in my household. Firstly, everyone says and even in the Bible says that Peter is the rock of Jesus his church. How come it wasn’t Mary Magdalene? Maybe it was. Why isn’t she in there for the most part? Because the people who put the Bible together or very high positions, we’re men, and what I would call sexist pigs. Didn’t want women to have any high positions in the church. Secondly, Jesus forgives all of the thieves, tax collectors, and so-called prostitute. However, he will immediately condemned gay, bisexual, and transgender people? How does that make any sense? These people then asked to be who they are. It’s the way it is. The other thing that is really funny is people seem to think that Jesus was a Christian. LOL I’m sorry to disappoint his people but Jesus was not a Christian. I highly doubt that Jesus intended to start an entire new religion. He was born Jewish, and he died jewish. As we can clearly see, he was very into his faith. So why in the world would he want to create an entire new religion? Of course, we all know the truth history of Christmas. It’s obvious that the Romans stole this idea of giftgiving from the pagans. It was said that the pagans had a holiday where they’re exchanging gifts to one another. The Romans thought it would be a fantastic idea adapted for ourselves, and call it Christmas. LOL I don’t believe in the second coming. I think Jesus has better things to do than to come down and punish us like children. We are doing a perfectly good job of destroying the world ourselves. We certainly don’t need the devil to come here and do it for us. I believe that there is more out there than we can possibly understand. The Bible is not all that there is. You cannot sit here and tell me that the Bible is completely true and that there’s nothing outside of that. To me, that is complete bullshit. I will never except that.
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Nan,
Your post and the comments from the atheist peanut gallery demonstrate that atheists are hung up on religion.
“The existence of God can be reasoned out logically or you can partake of the various modern scientific proofs that demonstrate beyond doubt that God exists.”
Where in my statement is there any mention of religion?
Clearly, based on that and the completely moronic comments made by a bunch of irrational religion haters…
…there is no interest in rational discussion or scientific discovery.
You need to convince me how my comments here are not a complete waste of time.
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SoM,
I hope you’re read the comments that follow yours as it seems evident these individuals are not limiting their words to “religion,” but are instead addressing the logic and scientific proofs that you claim demonstrate the existence of your god.
Along these same lines, I don’t believe I’ve read anything from you that validates your assertions about god’s existence … .
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Nan,
Every single comment by atheists and your post are about religion.
How are you able to hallucinate an alternative reality that contradicts your own words written for all to see?
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Apparently interpretation is the key word here.
Be that as it may, I call upon you once again to validate your assertions about god’s existence. In case you missed it, here is what I am asking: “Can a person truly “reason out logically” the existence of God? And what “various modern scientific proofs” have been formulated to demonstrate this existence?”
If you dodge the question again, I will have to assume you are unable to provide a reasoned response.
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Nan,
It isn’t about interpretation.
Neither you, nor your atheist brethren write comments that relate God to science in any rational manner.
All you folks have to offer is personal opinion which you all masquerade as fact.
As far as logic and reason goes, if you people can explain how everything just happened all by itself (atheism) than I will be able to address your inquiry about logic and science proving the existence of God.
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“All you folks have to offer is personal opinion …” So you want facts and figures? I’m sure several of my readers will be more than happy to provide documentation for you. Oh, and BTW, not everyone that reads this blog is an atheist so stop lumping everyone together.
And quit passing the buck. YOU are the one that made the claim so it’s YOU that should back it up. Anyone reading this conversation is under no obligation to explain anything (even though a couple of them have offered some valid points).
So go for it! We’re all waiting with bated breath.
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Nan,
I have written extensively on my own blog about the scientific proofs of God’s existence.
I’m not going to waste my time repeating everything here because you people just aren’t interested.
But if you can explain how everything just happened all by itself (atheism), I’m all ears.
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I took a quick glance at your website (never been there before) and noticed there’s no listing of your posts. I had to scroll and continue scrolling until I reached a topic of interest. Is this intentional?
Anyway, I found a comment on your post entitled, “Religion and Atheism,” rather interesting. You wrote: Atheists argue against religion as if all religions were equal, but clearly this is not the case. I think you’ve been misled. Atheists, as a rule, do not “argue against religion.” They argue against the existence of a god. Any god. The fact that “religion” is often connected to belief in a god is merely coincidental.
As far as everything happening all by itself … again, this has nothing to do with atheism. You (and other believers) tend to think a god caused “everything” and ask questions such as you did in your comment. Since to an atheist no god exists, the question is irrelevant. Further, the atheists I’ve come across are not interested in origins. And if they are, they generally accept the scientific theory of the “Big Bang” (and no, they don’t question what might have come before).
I find it rather fascinating that believers always reference back to origins to validate their belief that a god exists. But since none of us was there, it’s all speculation in the long run. 🙂
One more thing. Please do NOT lump me into the atheist category. While I cannot even remotely believe in the existence of a supernatural being, I do have my own personal beliefs on this matter (which I share in my book).
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Wrong. My comment simply says that your assertion relies on a presuppositional worldview regarding your god: First and foremost that he exists.
Yet you have NEVER offered any evidence that supports this claim to the exclusion of every other alternative, including other gods
There is no mention or requirement of religion in this.
All you are asked to do is supply evidence that can be shown to validate your claim to a neutral observer.
Please, SoM, go ahead ….supply the evidence.
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I like turtles.
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SOM many of us non believers are fixated by religion because we once were believers and religion was a big part of our life. Subsequent discussions like this are like a form of therapy helping us to repair the damage caused us.
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My belief is that for some people there is a deeply held emotional thought in the sub-conscious that gives hope that life does not end when you die and the concept of a god seems to make this speculation more believable. Of course, the individual may believe these thoughts are Gods’ guidance and religious acquaintances or family will of course influence their thinking. The individual must really be convinced enough to push aside what they have been taught about reality and consider the truth is buried within unbelievable events detailed within the Bible.
If at this stage the individual may not driven too strongly by any religious tales such as eternal life and the concept of sin and is smart enough to take their time and learn to weigh up real scientific evidence and ask the right questions of the right people and they would then likely decide to not move into the next stage.
When these individuals are often still undecided they are often set up to become snared by the local church, priest or fanatical followers. The indoctrination process is relentless mind manipulation through justifying and preaching the scriptures on a regular basis.
This process removes any doubts from their minds, therefore the individual has succumbed to a clever religious mythology believing everything they have been told and rejecting anything that is not agreeable with the ideology. Eventually they will believe their God is exclusive and feel he is in their heart promising a passage to heaven just as the Romans, Greeks and many others believed long before a so-called Jesus walked the earth.
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I’ve never understood why people seem so keen on eternal life. You would certainly want it to be a whole lot better than this life.
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“But is such an assertion valid? Can a person truly “reason out logically” the existence of God? And what “various modern scientific proofs” have been formulated to demonstrate this existence?”
I would certainly accept that it is possible to create a consistent and logical argument for the existence of a god. WLC managed to make a decent living out of doing exactly that. The bigger question is, what happens when that argument gets tested against reality using a repeatable and demonstrable process?
I have found that Christians will either make very dubious scientific claims, along the lines of “beauty exists, therefore my god exists”. They then refuse to accept that that isn’t actually a scientifically valid test. Or they will fall back to the old adage of “you can’t test god”.
Both roads demonstrate that god can’t be proven and any person who claims otherwise is a flat out liar!
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I don’t know if you have visited ColorStorm’s blog, but that pretty much sums up his argument. As it has been pointed out to him, such statements, if true, do not mean that any creator is necessarily the version of ‘God;’ he believes in. But these statements are dismissed with a proverbial wave of hand.
I recall a recent interview with the daughter of a survivor of the Holocaust. She said that after experiencing the Holocaust her parents concluded that ‘God’ could not exist.
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I have had the pleasure of engaging with CS and I agree with your summary.
He is the epitome of that fine brand of theist who occupies the grey area between ‘does he really believe the nonsense he utters?’ and ‘what an amusing poe!’
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Some of us have speculated on him being a POE, on the basis that he surely could not believe all that he says. But if he is a POE he has done kept up his guard exceptionally well.
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Hello Limey. I think CS is a troll that enjoys getting the rise out of others. Nothing he writes ever answers a question he is asked, almost like SOM. My personal opinion and so I won’t even acknowledge CS. I am still not sure about SOM, but seeing how he won’t answer a single question with a straight answer , but instead strings words together that mostly tries to insult the one he is responding to, I am thinking he is in fact a troll out to stir the pot for his own fun. Hugs
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haha, very astute Scottie.
som and cs are the worst kind of Christian ambassador you could imagine. They show how those that wear the religious badge are not improved at all. They are just as belligerent and arrogant and other self absorbed people. Belief in god and the alleged transforming power of the holy spirit has done nothing at all. There for all to see is the evidence that nothing changes and so one can only conclude that there is nothing there worth believing in.
So maybe they are actually the best kind of Christian ambassador after all because they expose the fraud and help to prevent more from falling for it.
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Nan, I thought you might like this video:
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Since you have politely invited non-Christians to comment Nan — thank you by the way — I have my personal thoughts I will humbly share. 🙂
Because so much of the more intriguing (possible?) arguments for a Divine Being venture into metaphysics or “miracles” as evidence, they already presuppose many theological tenets that tradition have established as evident or “fact.” But any truly open-minded person who eagerly seeks out “available current data” that humans can observe — excluding current findings in Quantum Physics/Mechanics of course — as opposed to implementing individual “faith”, will discover that at the very best the question of God’s existence is currently unknown. I personally carry this conclusion a step further: given present life and existence as a species on this extremely volatile fragile planet (in this daunting Cosmos), vehemently (or abusively) arguing the existence or non-existence of a God WASTES valuable needed time and resources to better CARE FOR our species, planet, and the future of both as a whole! Look what religious intolerance has gotten our species the last 2 or 3 millenia! Wasted time, energy, and sacred lives. It speaks very very poorly upon human “civilizations” and any theocratic imposition. 😦
But fortunately for our entire species, open-minds and science and the drive (unwavering will-power) to explore and push against human flaws & limitations — despite the doctrines of Abrahamic Total Depravity falsely teach/brainwash — HUMAN ingenuity and evolving intelligence can and WILL make the question/debate of God-No-God increasingly more irrelavent.
That’s my two-cents Nan. 😉
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Quotes from SOM:
1. “All you folks have to offer is personal opinion which you all masquerade as fact.”
Massive and I mean MASSIVE projection. So massive it is probably beyond repair.
2. “As far as logic and reason goes, if you people can explain how everything just happened all by itself (atheism) than I will be able to address your inquiry about logic and science proving the existence of God.”
First things first, atheism is not “everything happened by itself.” Everything happening by itself leads to the most logical conclusion, no gods. Atheism is a result, a conclusion. Once anyone understands even a little bit about the age of the universe, some basic geology, astronomy, evolution, and or many other scientific branches. It is the only logical conclusion “it happened by itself” And it started happening a long damn time ago.
The only thing the gods have going for them is people like you. And they are probably better off without your help!
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Christians often claim you will only understand the truth about God when you are filled with the Holy Spirit, however followers of all the gods experience similar emotions and this strongly suggests they worship their one and only exclusively idealised god that appears realistic to them and therefore it is obvious this can only exist within their own minds.
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Hello Nan. I would like to offer a observation if I may. I notice all the people on your comments section offered reasoned, logical, or concrete comments about the subject. I have to say I was impressed by them. All except one. SOM is the only one not to respond to what you asked. Instead he seems to want to give vague rambled comments that seem more of an insult than an answer. If SOM wanted to convert, wanted to show the truth of his view, not to mention his God, why wouldn’t he try to be as clear and concise as the rest of your commenters have been. I went and painfully read all of SOM comments three times. They were full of insult, assertion without back up, and a basic cop out, the old “I did it once won’t do it again”. Not once did he say anything that would draw someone to his god or even his view. To me this simply makes no sense. I guess I don’t understand some people, or at least their actions. Be well Hugs
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Scottie, believe me, you’re not the first to notice this! What it boils down to is these so-called “Christians” simply have no defense. So when they’re backed into a corner, they revert to insults, condemnations, “warnings”, and prattle. (CS is especially talented at that last one.)
I understand the need they feel to “convert” others, but they would get a LOT farther if they showed love and concern rather than anger and vitriol. Makes you wonder who’s really in control of their lives …
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Thank you. Have a wonderful day. Hugs
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Nan, I believe all religious people do understand they are on a hiding to nothing. They can shove the Bible as far as they like but it is all they have and it is such a document that has a history of been butchered over many centuries, interpreted and translated into hundreds of conceptions to suit hundreds of ideologies and was originally written by dubious authors about doubtful individuals and included many impossible events.
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Yup!
As has been my contention for a long time, most believers know little outside of what is covered in their church school or from the preaching lectern. If they truly knew the history of the bible … if they truly read it and saw the plethora of contradictions … if they knew all the stories that were circulating at the time the bible was written but were excluded because of the butchering you speak of … I think they might have a totally different outlook.
But they don’t, so ….
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Most Christians do not want to know the history of the bible nor any events that preceded Christianity, and in fact many of them will avoid and ignore the disagreeable and violent parts of the Bible. If they do check on Biblical history they will be inclined to ask an apologetic or the local priest and search religious web sites rather than go to reputable scientific web sites.
The ignorance of these issues is because they have become comfortable within their religion and it is part of their routine, the thought that what they are told and read in the Bible is possibly not true would never cross their minds. Difficult to break free from, especially when religion is a family and a community affair and with that sort of pressure, why would any moderate to strong Christian want to create any doubt in their own mind even if the evidence contrary to religious belief jumped up and smacked them in the chops?
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So true, sklyjd, The connection and shared values among the “Christian Family” is like Gorilla glue — next to impossible to pull apart. They really don’t care what “Christianity” is all about. They really don’t care that their Holy Book is less than perfect.
The Community is what’s important because they all speak the same language, they all pray to the same god, and they all share the same values. And woe to anyone who tries to disrupt this perfect setting!
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Getting back to the original question on logical reasoning for the existence of God…
A being whoes non-existance is inconceivable is greater than a being whoes non-existance is concievable. God is the greatest conceivable being. Therefor, God’s non-existance must be inconcievable.
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