Skeptics, Christians, and Bible Contradictions

bibleAs I’ve mentioned before, I follow a blog known as Finding Truth. Visitors include skeptics, believers (Christians), atheists, agnostics,  deists, and some who resist titles. Needless to say, some of the discussions can get quite heated!

In a recent discussion, 48 people (at last count) offered their comments. There were a couple that I found particularly thought-provoking and am publishing portions of them here. They have been slightly edited to retain coherence of thought.

Commenter kcchief1:

Use one scripture to prove a point and someone else will use another to refute your point. Paul also uses the age old excuse of the hardening of hearts when people don’t receive the scriptures. In the OT God hardened many hearts . Why would a God who wants the World to worship him harden people’s hearts???

Commenter joenbjerregaard:

[You] have to look for disagreements – as skeptics often do – to see them. We can’t expect every doctrine to be taught on every page, it is not reasonable. I’m pretty skeptical of much in the Old Testament, but I go along and say God hardened many hearts, as a punishment.

Commenter William:

I can agree that every doctrine shouldn’t be expected to be seen in every page – it isn’t reasonable as you’ve stated.

And Skeptics often do look for disagreements. Looks like I agree with you again. But I think we should elaborate this point. Christians are skeptics too – just of every faith other than their own. They’re skeptical of science that may disagree with the bible (hares chewing cuds, the earth being supported by pillars — though I admit is likely just poetic writing, a seed having to die before it germinates, the sun and moon being under the atmosphere, etc.).

Christians will seek problems in those things as well as in books like the koran to discredit them. So the atheistic/agnostic skeptics are indeed the same. And shouldn’t something so powerful, something from the most powerful, most perfect, most fair, most loving, most wise, and most eternal being stand up to such scrutiny?

Look at the contradictions within the bible. Did god bring the birds from the water or from the earth? What day did jesus die? What is the correct linage of jesus through Joseph? Is Tyre in existence or not? Are all the prophecy fulfillments in Mathew really originated in prophecies? How long were the Israelite enslaved in Egypt? When did the Israelites actually take all of canaan – if ever? How did Judas die? … and the list goes on and on…

But beyond skepticism, the believers will often dismiss and ignore any issue and only focus on the good parts or the cohesive parts. But the problems don’t go away no matter how hard you try to ignore them or hide them.

And really, why would anyone believe the bible was from god anyway? because the bible says it is? because the old authors of the bible claimed that they spoke on behalf of god, as if god couldn’t write a book for himself, as if it was just too tiresome for god to speak to everyone and clear everything up face to face, man to man? Come now. We can be better than that. Where’s the verification? What proves the authors’ claims? Oh yeah, they said there had been miracles that proved it… And that’s great – for those who allegedly witnessed them, but not for anyone else. Where’s the proof of those supposed proofs? Get my question?

IMO, William asks some very good questions. Do you have the answers?

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24 thoughts on “Skeptics, Christians, and Bible Contradictions

  1. God’s Word the Bible tells us the truth about history, prophesies about the future, and reveals to us who we are and what we are like. No other book can make the claims that the Bible does, because only the Bible is the Word of God. Those who are not well versed in the Scripture and do not have the Holy Spirit dwelling within them, will not understand the Bible and will misuse it. We are saved by faith in the risen Savior Jesus Christ and He opens our minds to understand the Bible. God bless you:)
    http://holdingforthhisword.wordpress.com/2013/08/17/standing-for-the-truth/

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    • It never ceases to amaze me when believers visit this blog — especially since it’s obvious the postings are pretty much anti-Christian. I suppose they feel by leaving behind a little “preaching,” it will change someone’s life. Don’t bet on it.

      In any event, Eliza, thank you for stopping by but I need to say this about your comment: I happen to be very well-versed in the scriptures and do understand the bible. I can say this because I was a Christian (with the “Holy Spirit dwelling within” me) for over 15 years. However, over time, I kept noticing contradictions throughout the bible, along with numerous passages that left me with unanswered questions. I went on a search for truth and it led me to write my book, “Things I Never Learned in Sunday School.” I encourage you to visit Amazon and read a sample. It may open your mind … if you allow it to.

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  2. If you had the Holy Spirit indwelling you, then you wouldn’t have left the faith. The fact that you saw contradictions confirms you read the Bible in the power of the flesh. Whenever I have had questions, I ask the Lord and He has always cleared things up for me. If you did understand the Bible you wouldn’t have left the faith. Well-versed in Scripture can mean anything the one making the contention wants it to mean. I am well-versed in the Scriptures and the Scriptures are in me by the Holy Spirit because I have repented of my sin and put my faith in Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior.

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  3. I totally disagree with your first sentence! You don’t know me or my experience in the faith, so you have no right to make such a statement.

    As for “asking the Lord,” how did you know “He” answered? Did you hear an audible voice? Of course not. You heard it “in your spirit,” which cannot be validated.

    I respect you for your faith, but I do feel you’ve been led astray by dogma and doctrine that has been repeated again and again over the last two thousand years until it has come to be accepted as “truth.” If you were willing to look at the actual history of Christianity (as I did), you might see things much differently. Of course, I know you won’t, so we’ll leave it at that.

    Thanks again for stopping by.

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  4. Eliza: Both Nan and myself had the same exact feelings as you. In fact, 23 years ago I would have written comments exactly the same as yours (although I would have been a bit more careful about wording it so it didn’t make judgments of others, but that’s not important to my point).

    The important point is this: even though 23 years ago I truly believed everything that you state in your comments, and believed with all my heart that I had repented, my sins were washed in the blood of Jesus, and that Jesus was the Lord of my life, 5 years after that I no longer believed those things. I changed. Change is a possibility in all humans. Most change only a little, but others change more.

    I know you don’t think these views you have will change, and chances are high that they won’t change dramatically given statistics, but there is certainly a chance that your views might change someday too. So perhaps that means that someday someone will tell you that you never had the Holy Spirit in you. Just food for thought Eliza.

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  5. Well, you may say that my experiences with God are not valid, but that doesn’t invalidate them, it just shows that you haven’t experienced the living God working in your heart and life. Yes, there are things that I have changed my mind about, but that change of mind has drawn me closer to the Lord Jesus Christ and not further away from Him. I have rejected the spurious and embraced the genuine. There is always going to be a battle that we must fight and it depends on how we fight it. Do we turn from the Living God or do we turn to Him for strength and help in time of need? Do we ask for faith or do we walk away from the faith? Do we trust that God is on our side and working all things together for good, or do we angrily rail against Him because things are not what we had anticipated? What was the reason for our “initiation” into the faith? Was it meeting Jesus Christ personally and being brought to the faith by Him or was it responding to an empty proclamation of the gospel without the proper grounding due to emotionalism? Nan, you said I don’t know you, but you don’t know me and have no idea whether or not I have studied church history. I don’t believe in Jesus Christ because of church history, I believe in Jesus Christ because He is the way the truth and the life and no one comes to the Father but by Him. I believe in Jesus Christ because He Himself has saved me and given me eternal life. I believe in Jesus Christ because I am indwelt by the Holy Spirit. I believe in Jesus Christ because His Word is true. If you reject the clear and glorious message of salvation in the Scripture you do so to your own peril, and it leaves much that you cannot explain in a coherent manner. By the way, the corruption of the “Christian” church in no way invalidates the clear message of the Scriptures regarding Jesus Christ and His salvation for all who truly believe and are born again from above by the Holy Spirit.

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    • Hi Eliza: it is very nostalgic for me to read the things you have written and I have fond memories of when I believed as you do. Thank you for that.

      However, there is a difference I see in my previous experience to yours that is worth commenting on: I never personally met Jesus Christ. I believed very strongly when I was a Christian that a relationship with God was not only possible but essential to the Christian walk and it was something that I earnestly sought out while I was a Christian. I prayed, fellowshipped with believers, read the bible every day, witnessed to others and participated in many small group studies. While I sought this relationship it never came. Not only was it not like a relationship that I have with loved ones or with friends, nothing even close to that occurred. Now if what you mean by “personally meeting Jesus Christ” is putting faith and trust in him I did do those things while I believed that he was God.

      I have another thought for you to ponder – has a fellow Christian ever said to you “how do I know for sure that I am saved?”. Perhaps a loved one or a friend? Maybe not, but I knew of Christians in the churches I attended who asked that question to pastors or elders. I was one of them. What I noticed was that pastors and elders in the church would ask them questions about their beliefs and that person would affirm that they believed exactly what the pastor or elder described. After that transpired the pastor or elder would always say “then you should be confident that you are saved”. Given the comments you have written above, it would not be wise for anyone to ever say this to someone else, because according to your comments someone may truly believe those things (as I truly did) but actually not really be saved because they never met Jesus personally. Also, if this kind of thing that you describe in your comments really is true then this God that you believe in does not meet any definition of “loving” that any reasonable human I have met adheres to. A God that requires belief in a certain dogma, and even when someone thinks they believe all that dogma they still are really not saved by this God sounds like nothing a loving parent would ever do to a child. I would certainly never ever treat my children in such a way. I love them way too much.

      If you are interested in witnessing to those who no longer believe in Christianity you should probably learn a bit more about why simply stating your beliefs is not convincing. It may help you to read this:
      http://truthiselusive.wordpress.com/2012/11/07/is-that-feeling-deep-in-the-heart-unique-to-your-belief/

      It is very short and there is nothing in there that disproves anyones beliefs but it will give you a very small introduction to why simple “preaching” of your beliefs isn’t an effective way of convincing others, especially those who have to decided to leave dogmatic belief systems.

      I want to dwell on this sentence in your comment a little too: “If you reject the clear and glorious message of salvation in the Scripture you do so to your own peril”

      There are people in other Christian denominations who would say the same exact thing to you, only they would be talking about their different interpretations of the truth. Whether it be Church of Christ or Church of God or many other denominations, those believers are very sure that you have rejected what to them is very clearly the correct truth of the bible, and they believe you do so to your own peril. Muslims also believe that the fact that you believe that Jesus is God makes you a polytheist and thus condemns you to a brutal afterlife. Many of them know just as strongly as you do that what they believe is true and what you believe is false. Now I am not saying this to falsify any of your claims. I am quite sure you know in your heart that the Muslims and people of other faiths are wrong even though they also believe strongly of the opposite, but at least give it some thought to understand those who have decided that these kinds of arguments cannot be proofs or ways of coming to the truths about reality. No doubt you will disagree with us, but if you want true dialogue then it is worth your while to at least attempt to “understand” where we are coming from.

      I also wonder this: Muslims are so incredibly sure as you are that what they believe is true, but according to you they are wrong. I wonder if the same could be true about you. Perhaps it is possible that you are wrong too. Is that not possible?

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  6. Hi Howie,
    I became a believer in Jesus Christ when I called out to God through Him and He personally answered my prayer. He met with me, making a covenant with me, exchanging my life for His life. Before I met Jesus Christ I cared nothing for anything having to do with God. As a matter of fact I was raised as an atheist by my psychiatrist father; he taught us religion was a crutch. After I met Jesus Christ I called my husband to tell him what happened. I expected ridicule, based on my upbringing, but he didn’t ridicule me. My desire after meeting Jesus Christ was to read the Bible, pray, and go to church, something I had never desired before. Well, I had read the Bible a tiny bit when I was a young teen, but my father dissuaded me so I didn’t read it again. As a matter of fact I greatly enjoyed assailing those who were Christians as a teenager. After I met Christ, it took awhile to go to church, and we got involved with people in the neighborhood who claimed to be Christians, but what they taught didn’t agree with the Bible and I found I was confused. I thought that one or the other was true so I took the Bible as true. I continued to meet up with false teaching either through books or leaders and God brought me to the point where I prayed to Him and said, “Lord I am going to trust You and Your Word.” After that prayer I had a greater understanding of the Bible when I read it. False teaching and error in the church is endemic. During my walk with Jesus Christ, God my Father, has twice called me to stand up for His truth by reassuring me He is with me Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Both times I had not idea what was coming, but I was able to, by God’s grace, stand for the truth and expose and refute error. I saw good fruit from my commitment to Him. It is important to believe what the Bible says, because through God’s Word we learn about Jesus Christ, Who He is and what He has done for us. Paul makes it clear in 1 Corinthians 15 that we are saved through belief in the gospel. We cannot, however, separate belief in the gospel from knowing the Savior. This is an experiential knowledge, as recorded in the Bible. We receive the Holy Spirit through faith in Jesus Christ, and God is alive and works in our hearts and minds. I have seen God answer my prayers on more than one occasion, and have been given peace and the ability to praise Him in difficult situations. I have had the assurance of salvation protect my mind and heart from the attacks of the enemy and my own sinful nature. God has used His Word in my life more than once to convict me of sin and bring about genuine repentance. The book of Romans was used by God in a powerful way to convict me of my sin and show me the salvation that is only possible through faith in Jesus Christ. I have had times when things just didn’t seem right, but I never charged God with the error, by His grace, I knew that the problem was with me. When my faith has been assailed by unbelief, I have cried out to Him for faith and been bolstered in my trust in Him. By God’s merciful provision, I have not allowed anything to be more important to me than the love of my Savior and my love for Him. My “church” experience hasn’t really been as positive as I would like because there is so much compromise and apostasy proliferating among the leadership and the attenders. If it wasn’t for the prophesy in the Bible warning that this would be the case, I would be very confused and discouraged. All I can say is that God has been very merciful to me, and has graciously covered me with His love.
    I realize that what I have just said hasn’t really answered too many of your questions or objections, but I believe that it is important to stress that God is living and active in our hearts and minds, and that is why His Word is living and active and sharper than any two edged sword. I don’t know who discipled you or how you were led to Jesus Christ, but with the avalanche of error and false teaching in the “church”, perhaps you were just a feather in someone’s cap and they were not really concerned about your soul, and so they reassured you rather than doing some serious investigation with you.
    The questions that you asked regarding other denominations and other religions are answered with the question, what do they make of Jesus Christ and are they relying on His cross work and resurrection from the dead for them, and do they believe that the Bible is the Word of God? If they in anyway assail His person or His work or deny the infallibility, inerrancy, or inspiration of the Scriptures, then they are false. Other religions and false belief systems broadcast they are false by their fruit.
    The Scriptures clearly prophesy about Jesus Christ, His first and second coming. There is prophesy about other historical events too. The Bible is a unity and really it discloses the wickedness of human kind, even those called to be God’s own, and the need for salvation from sin and God’s wrath. It also tells us about those who believed in Him, trusting His truth, His Son and His love and goodness. By God’s grace I am one His and live for His glory.

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    • Hi Eliza: Thanks for hanging in on the discussion.

      Have you ever given any thought to how you would answer someone if they said to you “Eliza, I’m not sure I am saved. What exactly are the things that I need to know that will assure me that I am saved?” After reading your comments it really isn’t clear to me how anyone could be assured of that. But it seems like this would be the most important question of all if it could impact our eternity. You’ve said that personally meeting Jesus Christ is one essential part to knowing one is saved, but that’s really a pretty vague statement. Does one have to see the body of Jesus? Does one have to literally hear his voice? Is it just a feeling deep in your heart that Jesus is real? How would one know for sure that they truly personally met him? You’ve also said one can know if someone is saved by their fruits. This is also a vague statement. Exactly what those fruits would look like should be listed out in great detail so everyone could understand. And it would be very important that those things could not be interpreted in more than one way. Yes it does seem like an impossible task, but it is the most important question by far if what you believe is true.

      If this is by far the most important question for humanity then surely you would want to explain in incredibly exact and precise detail all the things which would assure someone that they are saved. Can you do that?

      And lets say that someone honestly felt that they believed and had the experiences that you described, but then years later found out some new information which caused them to be convinced that their previous belief was wrong. Does this mean that they were never really saved after all? By your comments I am getting the feeling that your answer is yes. But if this is true then it is a guarantee that nobody who exists can ever be assured that they are saved, because for everyone there is always the chance that their beliefs could change someday thus nullifying the truth of their salvation. This is a very tricky game for something that is the most important thing for us as humans to figure out. How could something so incredibly important be as you describe?

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  7. Hi Eliza: Thanks for the time you took to write that. I read it through and noticed that you continue to basically write exactly what you have written here in your comments. You mention the need for “experience with the living God” and the need for “meeting Jesus personally” yet you don’t give details about exactly what that means. You say it can’t be emotional, and you also say it can’t only be believing, but don’t describe in detail what it really _is_. Again for something so incredibly important surely it would be much clearer than what you write. With what you write nobody including yourself could ever be assured of the kind of salvation that you believe in because there is always the chance that someday you will have different beliefs. I know you think that is impossible, but do you really think it is completely impossible? I know you are a human and given that it is certainly possible.

    I really think it is important for you to think more about the fact that there are others who feel they have met with God as well and yet have different beliefs than you. I know you think them mistaken, but the fact is that the way in which they speak about how sure they are about what they believe is exactly the same way in which you speak about how sure you are about what you believe. Simply preaching to others that you are so sure and simply quoting verses from a book that you think is powerful can’t be the proper way to provide a way of finding truth to others when so many do it and believe it so strongly yet believe so differently.

    If you are ever curious to understand a little more about people who no longer adhere to dogma don’t be afraid to ask. I’ll always try to be respectful, as I hope I have been here in our discussion.

    If there are good forces or gods that exist somewhere then I hope they bless you as well. 🙂

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  8. Thank you for reading the post. How do I describe interaction with God? He initiates the interaction and controls it. Since He is the Creator and I am the creature, it is simple for Him, profound for me. I’m not sure how familiar you are with the Bible, but throughout the Scriptures God interacted with His people for blessing and for judgment. He blessed those who were faithful to Him and He judged those who rejected Him through disobedience and following false gods. He tells us in the Bible how to know Him and how to please Him. We know Him through turning from our sinful way and believing in Him and following His way which is detailed in the Bible. As I said in the post, I think, God my Father has made it perfectly clear to me by His Holy Spirit and through the Bible that those who reject the truth of the Scriptures creating a god after their own liking and living contrary to the Bible do not belong to Him. As Jesus said, “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them and they follow Me. John 10:27 Really rejection of Jesus Christ and the truth of the Bible is the default position of humanity. Salvation is God’s work from start to finish, although we are called to believe and have faith in Him. Sorry for you.

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  9. I was traveling for the past couple of weeks and unable to respond to comments. I’m back now and would like to offer some thoughts.

    First, I’d like to say thank you, Howie, for your insightful perspective and thought-provoking responses.

    Eliza, I read both of the posts on your blog, although I skimmed over the bible verses since I had long ago read them for myself — which brings me to the point that I would like to make. You consistently use scriptures to support your personal beliefs. That is certainly understandable, but for those of us who do not put their faith in the bible (for innumerable reasons), it does nothing.

    You write that believers must stand for the truth. I ask you, what is truth? By definition, truth is a fact that has been verified. Outside of the bible, how can you (or anyone) verify that Jesus died, rose again, and ascended to heaven? How can anyone (outside of the bible) verify that we “all have sinned and come short of the glory of God?” And how can it be verified (outside of scripture) that “Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world and the propitiation for our sins”?

    As I’ve said before, I respect your faith. I know your belief in God is genuine. And your experience of salvation has brought you to the place you are today.

    However, this perspective no longer works for me. And I don’t regret it for one moment. The path I’m on today has brought me a much greater sense of contentment and happiness than I ever found following the words of a book written many thousands of years ago.

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  10. Thank you for taking the time to read my posts. I could reason with you, but, it is the Word of God that God uses to draw sinners to Himself. He uses His Word to convict of sin and to show them their need of a Savior. If you refuse to listen to His Word, then why should He reveal Himself to you. You may be content and happy, but that doesn’t mean the Scriptures are not true and that you aren’t bound for hell for eternity because of your sin. God works in our hearts when we call out to Him in faith. No faith, no response. Rejection of the gospel, God confirms His rejection of you. God is the final arbiter of His disposition of each and every one of us. The only response that turns away His wrath is faith in His Son Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and belief in His Word the Bible. You may have read the Bible, but did God reveal His Word to you? You may have attended church, but did God save you through His Son Jesus Christ? He works in our hearts by His Holy Spirit as we avail ourselves of those resources that He has left to draw us to Him. Maybe your biggest problem was that you were involved with false teachers and you didn’t know it. Or what you thought was a genuine response to God was merely a fleshly response to a fleshly presentation. If you went back to the Bible and read it with an earnest desire to know the One Who authored it, He would hear and reveal the truth to you. There is the warning in Hebrews though that if we turn away after partaking in the things of the kingdom of heaven there remains nothing but the fearful expectation of God’s vengeance on His enemies. If you were deceived, perhaps God in His mercy and grace will save you if you repent and place your faith in Jesus Christ His Son.

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    • Eliza: I have to hand it to you, I really appreciate that you are blunt about what you believe. You don’t dance around the whole hell concept like some Christians do.

      Sadly there are many that use this fear tactic to convince others of their beliefs. Eliza, there are many different groups that declare your destiny to be an eternity of hell as well because you don’t believe as they do. And as I’ve said before they have no doubt that they are right. Their reasons are much like yours – they know in their heart that what they believe is true. For the muslims they know for sure that what is written in the Koran is the truth, and they know for sure that you are headed to hell because you worship a human and not their one true God. That’s just one of many examples.

      Just spouting what you believe and writing a bunch of verses is exactly the same thing that these other groups do, and they believe you are condemned. You give no evidence or reasons that you are right versus them. Your “evidence” is simply a statement of your beliefs, but nothing that supports why those beliefs are true.

      Nobody has assurance of the afterlife. That’s just a fact that we all have to deal with. No harm trying to figure it out, but this assurance just isn’t a part of what humans have right now.

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  11. Well of course there are always going to be those who contradict the truth; as Satan said to Eve in the Garden of Eden, “Has God indeed said,…? Those who reject faith in God as He has revealed Himself in Creation, through history recorded in the Scriptures and has revealed Himself to those who have seen Him work in their hearts and lives since time has began have a lot of explaining to do: Creation, depravity of mankind (think Ariel Castro for one handy example), the attitudes and actions of kindness, goodness, love, beauty, joy, forgiveness, etc., the reality of Jesus Christ, Who He is and what He did, (only the most Neanderthal in thinking reject the historicity of Jesus Christ), the intricate prophesies fulfilled in the Scriptures, the harmony of the sixty-six books of the Bible written over a period of about 1500 years by many different men from different regions, languages, and walks of life, the changed life of those who place their faith in the Savior, the fact that the prophesies of the Bible exactly explain what is happening in the “Christian” church today, etc. You have a lot of explaining to do, not only in answering these questions, but you will give an account of yourself to God:
    But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds” eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness-indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God. Romans 2:5-11
    If you read Romans you will find that this is why Jesus Christ came, to save us from the eternal wrath of God in hell for our sinful rebellion against Him. So your stance against God is what proceeds from the human heart without any effort or thinking, it is the default position of mankind, and unless God in His mercy and grace brings you to salvation your only expectation is of His wrath poured out upon you in hell for eternity. I am not trying “to scare” you, I am warning you. There is a big difference. The doctor may scare the patient when he tells her she has cancer, but he is warning her so that she will seek out the only option for recovery and health.

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  12. OMG! Eliza, you would have been perfect in the role of a “fire and brimstone” preacher. Are you sure you didn’t miss your calling?

    On a more serious note, as I indicated previously, it is very apparent your faith is based strictly on the bible — which you firmly believe to be the “word” of god. The thing is, not everyone gives this centuries old book the same value as you. In fact, many do not even believe there is a “god.” NOT because they have impenitent and hardened hearts, but because they have performed reasoned study and discovered the flaws within Christian teaching.

    I feel I must reiterate something I said before. I have been where you are. I was a “spirit-filled” believer in God and Jesus for over 15 years. There was a time when I would have agreed with every word you have written. However, that is not where I am today and thus, your words of “warning” no longer have an effect. Perhaps other readers of this blog may come to “believe” through your exhortations and if so, the bible says you will be rewarded. For your sake, I hope this is true because you have certainly put forth the “word” with fervor and dedication.

    I do have a request if you care to make any future comments. Please try to remove the preacher’s robe and just talk to visitors in your own voice. Sometimes things that come from the heart (instead of through a book) have much more impact. Thanks.

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  13. I am speaking from the heart. I doubt that you were ever truly saved. You may have participated in the things of the Spirit, much as Judas, but you were never truly born again. Those who are placed in the Body of Christ by God’s supernatural placement will never lose their salvation. As Paul said to the Hebrews after warning them about apostasy, But, beloved, we are confident of better things concerning you, yes, things that accompany salvation, though we speak in this manner. Hebrews 6:9
    I find it very interesting that you cannot answer any of my charges regarding what you have to answer for. You cannot give me an intellectually honest answer to any of the questions that I raised, because then you would see that what you believe doesn’t jive with reality. Evolution is a pathetic and empty hypothesis at best and in no way supports the reality and intricacy of life on this planet. Virtues are gifts from God, and do not arise naturally from the human heart as can be seen by the myriads of hateful things that sinners perpetrate against one another moment by moment. Sin and destruction are in the way of the sinner and there is no respite nor recourse apart from the grace of God given to those who place their faith in His beloved Son Jesus Christ. The wages of sin is death, eternal separation from God in hell, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
    Were you perhaps a member of a very liberal church? Heresy abounds in such institutions. In such godless institutions they sneer at the Word of God, the Bible, and mock those who believe it to be the revealed Word of God. I have shared as best I can by God’s mercy and grace, the love of God through His Son Jesus Christ, that I have experienced and hope that all will experience. But I have to be realistic, as God’s Word says that few will be saved. Just as only eight people were saved from the flood, and only three people from the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, so too now most people are deceived by their sinful nature and the devil.
    But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. 2 Corinthians 4:3-4
    So since you will not respond to the grace of the Word of God, “I skimmed over the Bible passages”, the only resort is to warn you about the just judgment of God and to urge you to flee the wrath to come that will consume the adversaries. Repent of your unbelief and sin and put your faith in the only One Who can save you, Jesus Christ the Righteous.

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  14. Eliza,

    First, I have reviewed your various comments and the only question that I can find directed to me personally was: ” … did God save you through His Son Jesus Christ?” My answer is yes. Most definitely. For you to deny (or doubt) this happened is not your call.

    Judge not, that ye be not judged (Matthew 7:1, KJV)

    There were a few other questions, but they seemed to be during your “conversation” with Howie and it looks like he addressed them. In fact, from my viewpoint, he asked you for input on some issues — and it doesn’t appear you ever answered him — at least not in your own words.

    Second, I have not spoken a word about evolution so I’m not sure why you brought it up.

    No, I was not a member of a “very liberal church.” In fact, I was “saved” in probably one of the most fundamental and conservative churches you can find — a Pentecostal Church of God. I later attended an Assembly of God and the last group I was involved with was the Vineyard Fellowship. In fact, the most moving experiences I ever had with “God” was during my time with this last group.

    BTW, did you read my entire statement? I skimmed the bible verses … “since I had long ago read them for myself.” They were very familiar to me and I didn’t feel the need to read them word for word.

    Eliza, I have tried to point out to you that I can relate to your fervor. I’ve told you that I respect you for your beliefs and understand your need to reach out to those who (you believe) need to repent. I have never once said you were wrong. I have merely said that this is not the path I have chosen to follow.

    In return, you have made accusations that I did not experience a genuine salvation and have told me to repent of my “unbelief and sin.”

    When I made the original posting, I had hoped visitors might comment on the entries I included, particularly those made by “William.” Instead, you have chosen to “preach the word” instead of offering your perspective related to his questions. Plus, as I mentioned above, I do not feel you addressed some of Howie’s concerns.

    If you are willing to do this, then you’re certainly welcome to continue posting. If not, then I think we’re done volleying back and forth about whether or not I was ever a “true believer.”

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    • Eliza,

      I have to be honest, when I saw you say that Nan hadn’t answered any of your questions I was a bit surprised as well because I didn’t remember reading many questions. Practically all that you have written has been statements about Nan and myself, not questions.

      We understand what you believe. I stopped commenting previously because I realized that we aren’t really at a place where we are communicating with each other. You can blame that on me…. personally I just think it’s because there is a huge difference in the way that we view the process of determining what is true, so I don’t blame it on either of us.

      For what it’s worth, if there is a truly good God or spirit or force then that being is more than welcome within my heart. If there really is a God who is all knowing and all powerful and all loving then I can’t see that I have to worry about what I actually believe, because He will take care of whatever needs to be done to make sure he enters my heart – the very description of “all powerful, all knowing, and all loving” seems to lead to that conclusion. A wrath of eternal pain when I am more than willing to allow an all good God into my heart is beyond anything that could make any sense to me.

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  15. Nan, thank you for letting me know about your spiritual heritage, it was as I thought, based upon heresy. All three of the institutions that you mentioned are very heretical. Early on in my walk with God I was led astray by false teaching, but God in His mercy and grace brought me to the truth that is His Word, because in His wonderful love, He led me to know that the problem was with me and not with Him. Since you were not truly saved you can still repent and place your faith in the One true living God and His Son Jesus Christ.
    Howie, we are commanded to repent and believe the gospel. Yes, God does work in our hearts to bring us to that place but as Jesus Christ said, strive to enter in. So we are required to call out to God in repentant faith and trust the provision of salvation that He has given to us through His Son Jesus Christ. God is an all good God, but He is also holy, wrathful, jealous, and vengeful. His wrath against sinful rebellion must be propitiated, and this He has done for us by sending His Son Jesus Christ to save us from the just judgment of God due us because of our sin. We must be careful to revere the revelation that God has given us of Himself that is in His Word, the Bible, and not demand that God be some made up god that is the figment of our imaginations and to our liking. All of that comes from the sinful flesh which tries to justify our wickedness.

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    • Preacher Eliza,

      You are coming from so far out in left field that I refuse to even address your comment about “heresy.” It may come as a surprise to you, but you DO NOT speak for God, nor do you have the authority to decide what churches are acceptable for finding salvation.

      Your “spiritual ego” is so big that I’m surprised anyone can tolerate being around you

      Comments to this posting are now closed as I refuse to read any more of your incessant preaching. Further, you will not be allowed to add comments to any posting on this blog.

      P.S. FYI, I plan to continue posting TRUTHS about Christianity and its hold on gullible people such as yourself.

      P.P.S. I tried to be nice to you, but I can now see it was a waste of my time.

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